Re: The other Wagner thread

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[Chris]

Final installment.

.Mark Foster I am with fernando!about an hour ago ·
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Chris Wilson Fernando, you do realise that the public internet is not the best place to threaten people with violence. Just saying. And why are people hiding behind false identities in order to post or view this thread? It's not hard to confirm user id's to the point of non-repudiation if you know what you are doing.about an hour ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson This isn't a Jack Reacher novel people!about an hour ago · LikeUnlike.

Buzz L. Mann Chris is true on that one. And threatening people is not what Jim taught you guys now is it?about an hour ago · LikeUnlike.

Fernando Figueroa How is fighting one on one a threat? It means two people agree to fight. If it was the way you guys are thinking then every mma fighter would be in jail.about an hour ago · LikeUnlike.

John P Painter You are really not making a difference until some person or group of persons wants to put you down. Celebrate and move on doing what you believe and know best. They will fall by the wayside. Been doing it for 40+ years and know that is true. I am still here and the detractors come and go. Part of life.about an hour ago · LikeUnlike · 1.

Chris Wilson Fernando, a sporting bout contest is not the same as someone sending you a list of people to assault on their behalf.about an hour ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson Guys, truth be told some of you seem like decent people. I'd venture to say that should we meet we would have more in common than not. Probably have a great time swapping stories over coffee or a cold beer. Your desire to speak out for a friend is admirable. BUT. This really isn't about whether Jim Wagner is a good guy or not, or whether Jim Wagner has a good bunch of guys willing to vouch for him. It's just about truth. What is true and what is not. This industry is riddled with falsehood and fallacy. Any number of frauds have come and go to the point now where if you make assertions and claims then you need to have irrefutable proof that what you claim is true. I can list any number of world class instructors instructors I have trained under and every single one could back up any claims they made with irrefutable and untainted independent evidence. They expect to be challenged, the bolder the statement the bolder the challenge. I could write the following marketing blurb for a semiar and ALL of it would be true. Chris Wilson self protection seminar. Student of Royce Gracie/Geoff Thompson/Peter Consterdine/ Dave Turton/Richard Dimitri/Billy Robinson/Mickey Gould and other icons of martial arts and self protection. Thirty years in the martial arts, Chris has trained serving special forces operatives, numerous police officers and across the security industry for more than a decade. etc etc etc. All of that is technically true, BUT, if I ever wrote that flier I would expect to be ripped to pieces and justifiably so because there are those who are truly world class and deserve the title. I absolutely do not.

Sometimes action is stronger that words lesson learned!about an hour ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell chris you are a waste of space, you come out with al the bullshit, but unable to take up my offer. clearly you are an arm chair warrior. big up and come to jims level 1. guess not thou cus your afriad. real life training. post what you want about jim, it changes nothing, he he a great instructor and is professional with it. he does not have to prove nothing to you. your the looser your missing out.49 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell call me chris. lets talk. guess that wont happen thou

Mark Foster Chris you write very nice and long and boring ,,,,,,,,if you want à good work out Come to sweden train with me full contact ! Put up or shut up!39 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson oh, and how would me attending a training course prove whether Wagner lied or not about his background? That's just nonsense.38 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell chris (not mr wilson) call me. you are just an armchair warrior. and cant deal with real life. call me lets talk. i aint threatening here, just asking you to call me. lets talk rather than on here.36 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72918 nothing at all to do with me yet seems pretty definitive.or are they all armchair warriors that know nothing as well?Jim Wagner's military, police, counter-terror creds in question.
www.bullshido.net
MMA Martial Arts UFC Videos Articles and Reviews.30 minutes ago · LikeUnlike · .

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell call me chris.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell call me chris.25 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell you are not doing yourself any favours here24 minutes ago · LikeUnlike

.Chris Wilson no, you call me! Armchair warrior!23 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell whats ur number?23 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson this isn't a dating site Gary!22 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell ha as expected. all mouth on here. i have your number anyway. good night CHRIS21 minutes ago · LikeUnlike

.Chris Wilson Hahahahahahaha... really. Okay then! Keep it real. be a hard target!19 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson nothing at all to say about the 35 page investigation into Wagners claims? The same investigation which outlines what the lies were that were told?

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell ha. proves an armchair warrior. be a week target. lol17 minutes ago · LikeUnlike

.Chris Wilson hahahaha.. you do realise that is what everyone with no answer to a real question says on the internet?14 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell dorset? lol . he proved himself in 2010. try looking back and reading about it. instead of listening to all the others. call me chris. or cant you. as your an arm chair warrior lol8 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Gary 'Dellboy' Dell its all been proved chris. jim is the genuine article. he does not have to go through this again. look it up7 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson you're obsessed man. Seriously, you need to look at behaviour that has you asking for strangers telephone numbers on the internet! I actually removed the reference to Dorset because I felt it may be unfair to others who were attending the course but so be it.3 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

Chris Wilson and so the circle closes and we end up right where we were this morning. Time for some real life.3 minutes ago · LikeUnlike.

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[GOVINDA]

Why can't we all just get along

[Chris]

The material is here for posterity. Records in public can be important when someone else holds the edit button.

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makes no sense chris. the offer was here for you. but you rejected. oh well. good luck with your training.

[Chris]

Why can't we all just get along

I'm generally considered the "nice" guy in most groups!

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[Chris]

MOST GROUPS. says it all lol bye mr nice guy.

well at least you came back to the forum where there are many questions waiting for you, still no answers though?

Nope, course not.

[GOVINDA]

Why can't we all just get along

I'm generally considered the "nice" guy in most groups!

I know mate

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[Chris]

jim already provided them. check it out online your find the answers arm chair warrior. my last post on this subject as it getting beyond a joke speaking with you chris. you have no gutts at all. bye for now.

oh please, armchair warrior, gutless... okay sparky.

I have already done the research online Delly and the conclusion is that Wagner lied. Unless you want to share something PUBLICALLY. Or answer the questions raised on this forum?

Do or don't. I have cocoa to drink and slippers to break in. This armchair wont sit in itself.

[Chris]

My absolute final thought is this.

If ANYONE ever wants me to attend a seminar to see what material is like for myself. If I am not already prepared to pay the full asking price then the following rules apply.

I expect to receive EXACTLY the same amount in cold hard cash as the person delivering the material. In this case £4500 I believe for two days or £2250 for one day.

My time is just as expensive as anyone elses, if not more so and the notion that it is not and I should simply travel because someone wants me to, in order to sit through an experience I have no interest in is laughable.

nothing more to add really. Be and Hard target!

[Ace Ventura]

jim already provided them. check it out online your find the answers arm chair warrior. my last post on this subject as it getting beyond a joke speaking with you chris. you have no gutts at all. bye for now.

Can yuo point me toward the study on the net where Jim was proved to be telling the truth. I have not seen it. Or, I hasten to add the material from the other side.

I train with a lot of people ijn the UK and would be interested in seing who I would train with before I part with any money.

Thnak you.

[Chris]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72918

[Socrates]

Out of interest, I went into Jim Wagner's website. It looks like he really has put up a number of PDFs to back up some of his marketing claims:
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/aboutjimwagner/documentation.html

What do you think?

[tonyk]

I know next to nothing about Jim other than recalling a tedious thread where Old Mother Hubbbard bleated on for a couple of months about how bad Jim was.Looking at Jim's clips he dosen't look that bad at all but has probalby made the same mistake as Bob Spour and not been fully honest about his past.It always catches up with you.

[Chris]

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4080.0.html

Another in-depth investigation.

[GOVINDA]

Seems to me the Arts or RBSD systems are like car boot sales these days, most of it is shite, lies and trickery, there are many Wankners (see what I did there) out there and many still to come......I for one give not a fuck.

Tom,

Ex SAS, special forces assassin, Ninja, 58th Dan in Masturbation, Bouncer at my kids school, owner of "I will kill you forum" etc etc...

[tonyk]

Seems to me the Arts or RBSD systems are like car boot sales these days, most of it is shite, lies and trickery, there are many Wankners (see what I did there) out there and many still to come......I for one give not a fuck.

Charlatans exist in all walks of life.Its just that the martial arts world makes a big deal out of it and thinks its exclusive to them.

[rasdj]

Out of interest, I went into Jim Wagner's website. It looks like he really has put up a number of PDFs to back up some of his marketing claims:
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/aboutjimwagner/documentation.html

What do you think?

Some of those letters are so vague. The sniper certificate for helping assist in coordination, evaluation... etc He could've been the secretary and gotten that letter. The 9/11 letter seems like a letter sent out to all the reserves. On his site he has a pic of himself and makes the claim of having served during the cold war. While technically true there is the hint that he might have done something significant. That would be like me claiming to have played cricket with Chanderpaul (W.I)and was respected by him ergo I'm a big cricket somebody. In fact Chanderpaul went to my primary school was few years younger than me and we a some point played on my school team. I don't know the man but as opposed to actual experience he seems to rely on clever marketing that at the very least pushes the line of honesty.

[Nick Hughes]

How many times is this guy going to come on here and say "this is my last post" and then come back on and post again? Any bets?

Rasdj has hit the nail on the head. I have never said anything about Wagner's techniques...never seen any except for a dire knife defense video that I couldn't watch beyond about ten minutes. For all I know his other stuff is the bee's knees.

The problem is that he is lying about his bona fides the same way Spour did and this has Spour-gate written all over it. Ask anyone who trained with Spour and his technique was top notch. I heard nothing but rave reviews about his Muy Thai etc. The problem came when, in a bid to aggrandize himself, Spour claimed to be associated with 22SAS which is where he came undone.

The cricket analogy that Rasdj uses is a perfect example of what Wagner does. Work as an air marshal for a few months and whey hey "I'm doing counter terrorist missions." (huge difference by the way between counter terrorism and anit terrorism and he clearly doesn't know the difference). Go guard the parking lot while someone else protects the client and "I was on a bodyguard team" None of it is really a blatant lie if you're willing to go the stretch...but it insults the guys who've put in the work and done the real stuff...and that's my problem with it.

I worked with a Pole called Rob the Pole (of all things ) when I worked for Showsec between gigs for the Saudis. I was getting my hair cut one day and some chick recognized me from a security gig at Kentish Town and told me she knew Nelson Mandella's bodyguard. I asked her if she lived in RSA and she claimed she didn't so I wondered what Nelson Mandella's BG would be doing living in London if his boss lived in Sth Africa.

I asked her a few more questions about the guy figuring I might know him (Close Protection was a fairly small group in those days). She said his names "Rob" and he's Polish and then the penny dropped.

Guess what Rob did at Wembley stadium when Nelson Mandella visited London? He was assigned to the Porta-Johns to make sure only the VIPs used them. That's it. A toilet guard, but, because Nelson Mandella was there he was part of his security team and therefore, in his mind, and to big himself up, Nelson's bodyguard.

The office received a copy of a letter from Mr Mandella's team thanking everyone for the professional assist. Anyone who wanted a copy could get one and this is the sort of thing Mr Wagner does.

He'd take the letter, post it up, and claim he was part of the Mandella security detail implying that he was in the inner circle when in fact he was a muppet hired to man a gate somewhere and check passes.

It's sad that these clowns do it....it really is. They'd be far better if they just said "hey, I tried the military and it wasn't for me but I'm a pretty good martial artist let me show you some stuff."

Over on some of the stuff Chris has kindly posted the jackass who comes back and goes away and comes back again, and some of the others claim this is jealousy and we're not making any money so we're trying to take down Jim's business.

I think I said in my first post they'd try that.

If that's the case go find posts by me denigrating Mick Coup, Hock Hockheim, Kelly McCann, Dennis Martin, Marcus Wynne, Lee Morrison, Dave Turton, Peyton Quinn, or anyone else that's any good. Hock for example has a prolific seminar circuit around the world...surely he'd be one of my targets because of the money he's dragging in.

I've been to Kelly McCann's set up and it's nearly a half million dollar a month gig to keep the place running. Why am I not slagging off Kelly to "take his business?"

Nope, I'm having a go at Wagner cause Wagner is a wanna be Walter Mitty liar of the highest order along with the lines of the infamous Jim Shortt, Bob Spour and the Combat Krav clown whose name escapes me.

Stop making up crap about yourself. Answer the 13 questions you've been asked about on Hock's site. Hock is one of the most straight up guys I know...if you come on and clear up any one of those he will be the first person to apologize and set the record straight as would I.

But guess what...just as sure as our sycophantic friend of Jim's will be back despite saying about five times that he won't, Mr Wagner won't answer or address any of them because he can't satisfactorily.

Nick

PS: As for face to face confrontations I'll meet Wagner anytime he wants. He's got to let me film it and post the results on you tube though. If he's the big bad counter terrorist, military specialist he claims to be he shouldn't be afraid of that but of course he won't rise to that one either.

[David Turton]

Nick ... Spot on mate

lets see what happens.. I wasnt TOO aware of the lack of creditability of his claims, which to be honest I wasnt orginally that interested... my comments were that several members of my organisation h had attended his seminars (indepenently, not all on the same seminar) and all were very disappointed with the stuff he was teaching..

The Bob Spour analogy was spot on... I rate Bob's Thai stuff and have said so more than once.... his claims re: 22 SAS were hiis downfall

The problem with Mr Wagner is that both his claims and his methods are suspect

well done to you and Chris for your stances in this

respect mate

[Peter]

Well, I have been away in London working for a couple of days and come back to find that the questions weren't answered, Chris has been called names for asking and a lot of people seem to have gotten awfully excited.

Why am I not surprised

We have seen exactly this pattern before and always when its been about someone who has something to hide or hasn't been telling the truth.

As there seems to be a lot of people asking the same questions all over the internet I don't understand why they aren't being answered if Mr Wagner's claims are true. Think of the marketing that could be done if those who doubt could be proved wrong! A golden opportunity wasted, or does it have to be avoided I wonder?

I know people are shouting that he provided proof in 2010, but why can't any of us see it? If anyone doubts me in my professional capacity (not martial arts related btw) I give them contact details of the professional and governing bodies I am a member of and certified by for them to check with. It isn't hard and avoids hearsay to the contrary such as what is happening here.

I was in a restaraunt recently which claimed to be award winning so I asked what the award was, was told then shown the certificate. Not that I was bothered really as the food and service were excellent anyway but those without something to hide do that. So I have to admit my conclusions of Mr Wagner aren't positive regarding his claims if he isn't doing the same in reply to fair questions.

If he is a Walt, he needs outed and if not then why not do something about the rumours

I agree with Dave, well done Chris and Nick.

Ah well, no doubt I will be told I am an armchair warrior and asked if I want a fight as well now

[Chris]

Nietzsche once made the point that whenever anyone holds the power they also hold the truth. If you are the part of the group who decides how information is interpreted then that becomes the truth.

That's a group dynamic. Whatever the power in the group decides is the truth becomes actual truth for that group. That's how cults are born.

So... if Wagner's cult decides he is clear of all wrong-doing and lies then that becomes their truth until they meet a more powerful force which changes that perception.

What they feel and believe doesn't make a difference at all outside of the group because the outsiders aren't impacted by the warped perception. Hence, I don't give a monkey's that they are delusional, I just find the behaviour bemusing.

This type of stuff follows a pattern, just as Pete mentions. It starts with statements, those statements are challenged, denial follows, ad hom attacks follow, aggression and finally threats.

par for the course, seen it many times.

The funny thing is I was attacked on a personal level for daring to respond when Wagner's rep and then Wagner himself made public statements. First on here, secondly on facebook. I failed to follow the rules that these groups want you to follow which is unquestioning acceptance. No big deal overall, just another discourteous asshat. BUT. my suggestion to all involved with Wagner is to look at Wagner closely and decide if their path is worth following. Especially at $2250 per day. Brain Surgeons don't make that kind of money!!

Oh and shock of shocks I can no longer view the facebook thread I posted above. I have also been "defriended" by Wagner or whoever has access to his profile.

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