Question for you

Hi Nick.

I remember you writing once that you recommend that people get a black belt in one art at the beginning and then go and cross-train with other arts that fill in any missing gaps.

I was just wondering what attitude people should adopt for the secondary arts. Should we go in as a complete beginner and learn everything from scratch, even if it contradicts our core system? Or should you pick and choose the bits that you need?

Thanks!
Rupert

I started over completely each time...put on a white belt, shut my gob and went through the system. Outside of class I'd be working out which bits complimented what I was already doing, which worked for my physiology and so on.

Some of every system/style isn't going to be applicable to everyone. It's like a seminar. Hock made the observation that at any point a percentage of the attendees aren't relating to what you're teaching. Styles will be the same...a particular throw, lock, kick etc won't work for you but will be perfect for another guy in the room.

As for which style to pick, I'd always go for one that taught something I was missing. I.e. if I was doing Judo I'd now be looking for something that taught me to strike and vice versa.

Good question by the way

Nick

Thanks, Nick. Good answer... just what I needed!

Good topic!

I reckon everyone who’s ever cross-trained within the martial arts has wondered about this one at some stage or another. For what it’s worth, I certainly agree with the theory of concentrating on one discipline for quite some time (perhaps black belt level) before getting into others.

The things I found really difficult to cope with were the subtle, but annoying, differences between styles. Things like - one style uses a corkscrew punch and another uses a vertical fist strike etc.

I agree with Nick’s view regarding taking on training specific to what we need at the time, or are weak in. I found early days that my striking was deficient – did some kickboxing. Years later it needed another tweak – did some boxing.

Funny thing, even styles you perhaps didn’t find particularly worthwhile overall still tend to leave you with something extra, however small, for your ‘A’ game. Have you found this too Nick, and if so, have you plucked any real gems from the most unexpected places??

Yeah, I think the foundational thing is key. I liken that original style to the foundation of a building...if it's rock solid there's no limit to how many "stories" you can put on the building...if it's weak, forget it.

All the guys I know who I rate have a core art and then they've added the missing bits to it. What I see too much of are guys who flit from system to system before they progress beyond the basics...invariably they're crap.

Re the gems from unsuspected places...yes, Tai Chi and Aikido come to mind. Tai Chi got me moving again when I was pretty much crippled after my motorbike accident...everyday I'd be able to turn a tiny bit further or bend a half inch deeper...Aikido had some very applicable law enforcement stuff which is no real surprise given it was designed to control and restrain.

I can't think of a seminar I've been to...even a bad one...where I haven't picked up something.

Nick

Hmm, I picked up flu once.

put on a white belt, shut my gob and went through the system.

Perfect attitude, and very much the one I adopted when I moved to Gavin's club! Shame I couldn't keep my gob shut a few years later...

However, it is often difficult to maintain 100% enthusiasm if you are training in methods, or exposed to principles which contradict your core training? As ever, you have to be selective in your choice of instructor.

As an aside, I've been on various seminars, but two of them- one by a 10th dan 'master' of goju, the other run by two American San-soo kung fu 8th dan 'experts'.
Both seminars - shite of the highest order.

The only thing I learnt from the goju guy was never to use his barber!

San-soo....rhymes with pooh! Work it out.

Paul,

Mate, none of the arts I did contradicted my core training...Judo, Ju-jutsu & Aikido all had more similarities than differences...Tae Kwan Do, & Wing Chun, same again & the FMA stuff blends with everything (moreso than any other art I've ever seen). Even boxing wasn't that different.

I think the difference is you're talking about seminars and I'm talking about arts. Before I join a school I'll do a ton of research and make sure the one I'm joining is a good example of its respective art...with seminars you don't know until you walk in there a lot of times. The only good thing about the latter - and what I did with Mr Inosanto's one - is you can leave at lunchtime.

Nick

As an alternative to your approach Nick you could always do what my mate (1st dan shotokan blackbelt) did at his first ever Judo lesson......

Showed up with his black belt on and proceeded to run round just prior to the lesson doing flying kicks and screeching in a very "look at me" type way....

Bloody hell...I hope they sorted him out.

The rule of thumb in ZDK was you put on a white belt in any other art...if you're visiting another karate school though, quite alright to wear your belt.

Nick

No the instructor was a very gentle nice old man who just calmly explained the judo stuff, and gradually my mate stopped showing off.

One thing I will say My mates flexibility from his Karate meant that grappling with him it could be extremely surprising to see a leg suddenly appear where it shouldnt!

If he carried on showing off he may well have found it stuck up somewhere were it shouldn't!

No surprise the instructor was a nice guy...I can only think of one arsehole I ever met in all the years I've done Judo...don't know if it attracts nice guys, or they just end up that way after practicing for a while.

Yes, flexibility is a HUGE plus on the ground...my karate was also a big advantage in that regard...especially in the heavyweight division as most big guys aren't very flexible.

Nick

Out of interest, Nick, what should one look for in a judo club?

Soc,

Judo's probably the easiest one to get right because you have to compete to obtain your rank...ergo, all the black belt instructors have proved they know their stuff by virtue of the fact they've reached that level.

I'd go to one of the local competitions and see which club - assuming there were two in a town/city - had the strongest showing and biggest turn out.

Finally I'd supplement my training by getting to seminars with people like Neil Adams and his ilk.

If you have the money I'd also get to France or Spain for some additional training as those two countries lead the field - or did the last time I looked.

Nick

Excellent, thanks. I actually live in Spain!

Socrates

Judo's probably one of the most honest martial sports/arts. If you can't fight, you can't really train because training is based almost exclusively around active training against a resisting opponent. There's nowhere to hide as with things like striking systems ('ooo, I've got a bad shoulder, I won't spar I'll just hit the pads'). Everyone will have earned their grades. V similar to BJJ in that respect (which I believe you practice) but with the added feature that you only get your grades through gradings outside your club via competition with individuals from other clubs under one (mainly) association.

Cheers, mate. I´ve never tried BJJ...

Still haven't even found a local judo club and I live in Spain. I enjoy the BJJ I do but for me Judo is the perfect art to compliment striking and a much more 'complete' system.If you have the choice Soc, it's got to be Judo.

Yeah, I do a weekly trip to Madrid and the old wing chun just ain´t happening here. A bit of judo should be interesting.

When I decided to get back into training last year (in Spain) the first thing I did was look for a Judo club. Unfortunately, the VAST majority of them only teach under-16 yr olds. Where on earth all the kids go when they get to that age is a complete mystery.

Shagging, smoking pot and driving Seats with the windows blacked out and the music turned up to full notch...lucky bastards.

Back to Judo, the guy who we train with for BJJ is also a 1st Dan black belt Judo. We went to see him at a recent BJJ comp which started standing up, which I was suprised about as we always start kneeling. Anyway instead of the usual prancing about he picked up his opponent and dumped him on his head. The other guy, his opponent was an old training partner of my mates and I've actually rolled with him once myself, he's technically very good. He just wasn't used to this kind of stuff and he couldn't recover from this start.
I totally agree with Nick on this subject, BJJ is a very small part of fight training. Much as I enjoy it I'm in no doubt that it's practicality outside of comps is almost none existent, but with Judo I can see so much more. It's a shame because I'm trying to persuade Rafa to start a Judo club but BJJ is very much the 'in' thing at the moment. We basically train it to add to our own stuff, on it's own it just doesn't make any sense.

Got to Concur Rob...a bunch of BJJ guys turned up here at a Judo comp about four years ago and got flogged. Their forte is clearly the ground and the Judo guys were throwing them for ippons at which point the match was over.

Also, the whole goal is to keep your feet and drop the other guy...that's far more akin to every fight I've ever been in out in the real world than rolling round on the ground playing 'physical chess' with someone.

Nick

PS: damn...all this talk is making me want to get back in to Judo

Do it! I'm going to as soon as I find a club. As I said I do enjoy the BJJ but more for the competiton etc and as a part of MMA.