Catch Wrestling for the street?

Dave,

...if the question makes sense - which key catch wrestling techniques would you recommend someone learn for street self defence?
What are the core moves/techniques which would give most benefit in that environment?

The thing I liked and still like best about Catch is that so much of it is fluid, 'chaining' and brutal, 90% of the moves are designed for some real 'destruction' of limbs and other body parts, plus they are put on FAST, so you can snap bits quiet quickly

I will give you TWO short lists mate.. the first the few catch moves I have PERSONALLY used effectively and second the others I believe would be just as effective

1. The Elbow Scoop .. never let me down yet
2. The Catch Face Bar .. lovely controller
3. The rear Dump .. need to be in VERY close though
4. The Assisted Head and Hip throw.

I have used the above for real

1. The Grovit .. Pain and danger personified
2. The Head Turn
3. Shut down and put Down .. I havent used it, but a couple of my students have
4. The Nostril Rip .. again same comment as No3
5. The Arm Drag Take down.

The main 'core' idea within the style of catch I studied was getting in low and close, jamming limbs then causing some jarring or ripping pain before a very heavy DUMP... if you hurt them hard enough with a Dump, you dont need much else.. the angles are designed to pop elbows or shoulders when they hit the deck..

the Chain Holding Footwork is nearly as good as advanced Tai Sabaki, and thats saying something .. however the most used tenet or motto would be
"The more damage you do to your opponent standing UP the less you need to do on the floor"

Thanks, Dave. Much appreciated as ever.

I am working on building a knowledge of the key parts of the most functional Western Arts - pugilism and wrestling - partly as a self defence option and partly as a way of preserving and appreciating the Western heritage. Your input is invaluable.

anything else I can help with mate .. just ask

DaveCollins wrote:Thanks, Dave. Much appreciated as ever.

I am working on building a knowledge of the key parts of the most functional Western Arts - pugilism and wrestling - partly as a self defence option and partly as a way of preserving and appreciating the Western heritage. Your input is invaluable.

Have you found much info on Pugilism? I've come across very little

Ade wrote:

DaveCollins wrote:Thanks, Dave. Much appreciated as ever.

I am working on building a knowledge of the key parts of the most functional Western Arts - pugilism and wrestling - partly as a self defence option and partly as a way of preserving and appreciating the Western heritage. Your input is invaluable.

Have you found much info on Pugilism? I've come across very little

Quite a bit actually, mate. There's quite a number of original boxing manuals on the web, and a few groups who are trying to get an idea of how it was all used in practice.

A lot depends on your focus though - e.g historical research or practical self defence. I like both types since it is (to me anyway) fascinating to find out what great effective (and brutal) martial arts Britain had and to see how to apply it in reality. I reckon we once had an excellent complete 'stand-up to ground art' if you combine pugilism for the stand-up and throws and Catch for the wrestling.

Have you any links to anything on Pugilism that includes standing grappling and throws?

what do you reckon to the theory about the filipino infulance on boxing

Dave and mods if this is off base please let me know.
D. Collins, have you checked out Mark Hatmaker over at extremeselfprotection.com? He is big into the western arts and has a self defense focus. i've never trained w/ him but heard good things.

cobra kai wrote:what do you reckon to the theory about the filipino infulance on boxing

My view is the same as various others - including those with guro status in FMA - there was none. Boxing existed in its own right from the ancient Greeks, on through the Romans and into Britain, especially England. It - supposedly - was only seen by filipinos when sailors came to those countries from the West - most of those probably being Dutch anyway first of all.

My own personal take - and many will disagree - is that the West has its own rich martial arts heritage. This was mainly forgotten since it had transformed into sport - e.g. modern boxing/wrestling - and wasn't seen as a 'martial art' which is obviously what they had been. Then along came good old Bruce Lee and people don't know any better - they think martial arts begin and end with the orient, whereas that is just the tradition of that area of the world, everywhere else had their own. This proces happened, IMHO, because the West was far more technologically advanced than other areas of the world in terms of military technology so the need for unarmed martial arts in particular died out in favour of guns.
Japan for example shut itself off from outside influence and thus its existing 'martial arts' persisted in their older form for longer.

rasdj wrote:Dave and mods if this is off base please let me know.
D. Collins, have you checked out Mark Hatmaker over at extremeselfprotection.com? He is big into the western arts and has a self defense focus. i've never trained w/ him but heard good things.

Yep, I am a fan of Hatmaker's stuff! His 'Illegal Boxing' gives a useful introduction to a few of the more brutal methods which were eliminated from pugilism to make it more the sport of boxing.

Ade wrote:Have you any links to anything on Pugilism that includes standing grappling and throws?

Any of the older manuals from late 1800's even into early 1900's will give you an idea of the throws and grappling.

However, Kirk Lawson has handily combined it all into one book! Which is nice!

http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/banned-from-boxing-the-forgotten-grappling-techniques-of-historic-pugilism/1374565

This link will also start you off in the right direction, mate -
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/old-old-school-boxing-610058/

Cheers DC

That Lawson book is just what i'm after,nice one!

If I remember correctly Ned Beaumont’s Championship Streetfighting Boxing as a Martial Art, has some reference to wrestling in London prize Ring rules. As does John L Sullivan’s book, appropriately titled I can lick any sonofabitch in the house.

Pugilism was NOT prize ring nor bare knuckle boxing, but something akin to the ancient greek Pankration

the word derives from PAG a celtic word meaning FIST..
pag-pug-pugilism

Filipino influences .. utter shite... none at all

the Greeks had pankration AND boxing
the Romans brought certain styles of 'boxing' usually with the Caestus, ( kind of knuckle duster hand wrap)

we in Britain already had several 'boxing' (to use the word very loosely) when the Romans arived .. how anything Filipino could have influenced that is beyond me

The Book of Leinster mentions pugilsim and that is 2000 years old

Crayling was an old lancashire combat style that incorporated strikes and throws, and that is 3000 years old

well when I say Lancashire the boundries were different then

England was known as ALBION and the Cumbria/Lancashire areas known as the county PALATINE ..

boxing matches existed then

dont confuse Prize Ring, with Bare Knuckle, with London Rules or with Pugilism..these were slightly differing styles with different rules

also the training was vastly different
the left jab of today didnt exist until 1770 when it was introduced for one reason and one reason only .. top draw First Blood

as well as betting on the outcome of a match the 'Fancy' (the young aristos) also started betting on which fighter would draw 'First Blood' on his opponent ... trainers changed the Straight Left 'Thrust' into the faster left jab, because it split lips and busted noses quicker.. so the fighter using it would draw First Blood and win some extra dosh for both their backers and themselves

there is also some confusion about the use of the Cross Buttock.. most Pugilists used the Buttock NOT The Cross Buttock .. 2 slightly different throws, but the standard Buttock was easier to execute against a 'puncher'... teh Cross buttock easier against a grappler

David Turton wrote:

1. The Elbow Scoop .. never let me down yet
2. The Catch Face Bar .. lovely controller
3. The rear Dump .. need to be in VERY close though
4. The Assisted Head and Hip throw.

I have used the above for real

1. The Grovit .. Pain and danger personified
2. The Head Turn
3. Shut down and put Down .. I havent used it, but a couple of my students have
4. The Nostril Rip .. again same comment as No3
5. The Arm Drag Take down.

"

I wish i knew what they were

mrmuaythai wrote:

David Turton wrote:

1. The Elbow Scoop .. never let me down yet
2. The Catch Face Bar .. lovely controller
3. The rear Dump .. need to be in VERY close though
4. The Assisted Head and Hip throw.

I have used the above for real

1. The Grovit .. Pain and danger personified
2. The Head Turn
3. Shut down and put Down .. I havent used it, but a couple of my students have
4. The Nostril Rip .. again same comment as No3
5. The Arm Drag Take down.

"

I wish i knew what they were

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