B.O.B - Body Opponent Bag

Hi Mr. Morris,

after I watch this clip in Primal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbcClpVRYLM
I saw an upper torso figure called BOB in the room.
Some guys also uses a heavy duty canvas grappling dummy to add more realistic ground and pound and grappling drills (http://www.nlsport.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=326&cat=374&page=1).
Do you recommend some fighting exercise in this types of "doll/dummy"?

I've used the "BOB" for ground and pound and I liked it since it added some measurable targets. I was able to focus shots to the head, jaw, sides of the head, top etc as well as knee in chest and knees to the ribs knowing exactly where my shots were landing. I also did a rear naked choke! I was also able to do side control with an actual head although it would be better with arms too.
But I find my regular heavy bag at home that I use for ground and pound very good also. It has a bit more resistance and I can roll around with it easier. The BOB has the tube at the bottom that connects to the base that makes it awkward. Both have advantages and disadvantages.
I like the BOB though. I haven't tried the other dummy with arms.

Tommy

None of the equipment in that gym is mine, it belongs to Tony Pillage. Personally I wouldn't put this kind of equipment in my gym, if I had one. It sets the wrong atmosphere for serious fighters. It's something you could have with your garage, but like any piece of equipment it rather depends how you're using it.

The way I've seen it used is usually really geeky.

Let's say Tyson had one. He'd be using it like Tyson. But now let's give it to a karate guy. He'd be giving it chops below the nose, behind the ears, thumbs to the throat, eyes, whatever. Your pressure point people will be doing their pressure point stuff on it.

The distinguishing thing is whether what you're doing on it works in a real fight. And I'd have to say out of those examples I've given, I'd choose Tyson. If you're going to get one, that's how you've got to use it.

Same with the wrestling/submission dummy. You'd want to be using it like a Gracie or a Randy Couture might use it. You've got to use it in a way that visually/kinesthetically supports how you have to fight, or you're training the wrong thing.

Again, the way I've seen the wrestling dummy used it rather looks like the guy's making love to the thing. And the design of the one you've shown here, it flops around. It's not representative of a person in weight or consistency.

The real professional leather heavy dummies which wrestlers use are much better for supplexes, dumps, etc.

But one idea is just to get a heavy bag and tie a fucking towel or rope on it and wrap it in some duck tape. Use your imagination that it's an arm or a leg. It's cheaper!

The important thing on this one is what's in your mind, and making sure that you have an accurate representation that you can then translate onto whatever equipment. Bag, pads, speed ball, ground ceiling ball, shadow-fighting. It's first having the impression and then making a realistic translation of that impression.

Remember, your opponent isn't going to stand there like BOB, or lay on the ground and let you work submissions. It seems obvious, but when I see people use the equipment they've often forgotten that the guy is going to be fighting back.

Thanks to both,

Recently I found another view about a differente type of BOB...

"When you are in a training fight against your comrade, you know ahead of time that he will not kill you. He also knows that you will not kill him. Therefore you loose interest in the training fight.
A 'doll' can kill you, but you will not get into much trouble if you break its ribs or neck. We have an important job to do. We must not falter in a critical situation. We will not falter. Our commanders want to be sure so they make us train with dolls...
A doll is a criminal on death row.
The old, the sick and the weak, or those that know too much, are killed soon after the death sentence. Those that are strong are used before their death to increase the strength of our country... This is for the benefit of both sides. We can train without worrying that we will hurt our partner and he gets to live longer. Of course there are not too many of these dolls now, so we are ordered to use them carefully. This however does not reduce the quality of training. You cannot hurt him too badly, but he has no restrictions. He has nothing to loose.
He can break your neck.
This is why fighting with a doll is 100 times more beneficial than fighting with a partner or instructor. Fight with a doll is the real fight, it carries a real risk.
Another training tool that he describes is use of dogs in training. He says: "A dog does not know this is a training excercise. Its not like a man. It always fights for real."

(Extract from "Inside the Aquarium", by Victor Suvorov)

It's fucking sick, and I don't want to discuss it on this forum.

I'm leaving it up only so that people can see I don't want it here. If you want to talk about this, take it somewhere else.

I agree and I don´t want to talk more about this too.
No need.
Kid´s fighting (and Kid´s K.O.) is fucking sick too by the way.

Well, back on the subject of "BOB"...I checked out the link for that canvas dummy and don't get it. Why would I want to practice grappling with a dummy? What feedback would that give me? I think "that" dummy is bullshit.

Like I said, in my garage I have a specific heavy bag that I use for ground and pound and it works as well or better than anything else. But I have worked with the "BOB" and the place where I train uses them for ground and pound at times. I thought it worked well although little soft in the head area and the neck bends too easy. Also as I stated it has the plastic tube/stem problem. It isn't as dense as a heave bag but it does give some feedback as far as targeting your knees/elbows and fists/hammerfists. Something a regular heavy bag lacks. It kind of adds to the visualization a little. It has it's uses I guess and is more of a "something different" thing to try but it isn't a must have.

I came across one for the first time a couple of years ago in someones karate school. I smacked it around a bit and had a good time. It felt like skin! It was the longer torso so I was able to kick it in the groin. I liked how it felt when you slapped its head and jaw. I didn't really "karate" it....I boxed it and slapped it, neck cranked it and knocked it around. It tends to move around which was good because I could chase it down.

Bottom line....fun to use sometimes if it is available....but I would never buy one. My extra heavy bag works fine.

Tommy

Luciano, I can see where you might have concerns about young guys going in the ring. There are a lot of dangerous competitive sports where kids are potentially at risk. The risks are more direct in ring sport, but that's a choice.

But 'fucking sick'? No. Two young guys slugging it out in a ring is not comparable to using death row prisoners as target practice. They didn't have a choice. It's a whole different ballgame.

BTW, Josh has just turned 15. When I was 15, I was fighting and knocking out grown men. As was Vince himself.

It's funny how this comes up now and again about boxing and the like for kids but not about Football (American) or Ice Hockey.

Tommy

or a host of other sports, rugby, footy etc. I did a first aid course the other week with a load of trampoline coaches. The injuries they were describing from that sport was horrendous, a lot of neck and spinal injuries which you don't see in the ring as arule seem to be more prevalent in trampolining

http://www.mmadoc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=74

...but to show my open mind I like a lot this clip too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIbrgcfThxc

Spencer remember me with my friends in my neighborhood at my 7 years old
Today the kids use guns and knifes...

Luciano Imoto wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIbrgcfThxc

That was fucking great!!
If those kids were doing that just from watching their favorite fighters on T.V. then that was fantastic. It also supports something I wrote about awhile back concerning an argument I had with someone on another forum saying "fighting doesn't change."

Kids mimicking their favorite ball players, batting stances, footwork, boxers, wrestlers moves etc, start to take this stuff into their play. Eventually it becomes the new way and ends up being adapted into adulthood. So when someone says "what are the chances of meeting up with someone in a bar or on the street trying to fight me like an MMA fighter?"....well there ya go. It won't be long before todays kids grow up and that is the new way of fighting. Today's Kids play is tomorrows reality.

I really enjoyed that clip.
Tommy

You're right.Things have changed at high school since Karate Kid.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIiXPBm_bE

I hate the fact that that movie is coming out.

On another note concerning the influence of these things on fighting. Some years back in N.Y. there was a guy who killed someone he was fighting with by jumping up and kicking him in the neck. The guy didn't know any karate he just saw it in the movies. I don't remember the complete circumstances but it was labeled something like the karate killing or some BS in the papers.
I remember the 70's after Bruce Lee came on the scene. Actually it was before than I think...I think it was "Five Fingers of Death."
Everyone was trying to kick when they fought. After Bruce if you ended up getting into a fight with someone the jerkoff would start dancing like Ali or Bruce and then fire off a round kick. Maybe I live in a weird place

Tommy

The first clips of the kids were amongst some I'd set aside for a page on my site that I was going to call 'Dougal's Head'--a comparison between reality and dreams. They're a great example of the reality, and part of that reality is playfighting, particularly kids. What would you rather have your kid doing, marching up and down a dojo in a gi, or doing this kind of stuff?

The second clip from the movie would definitely be in the dreams part of Dougal's head. This kind of thing really detracts from the effort that you put into being a martial artist. It's Van Damme type bullshit.

And the trouble is, in the martial arts today it's hard to actually separate the dreams from the reality. It's ironic that they choose MMA--which is the thing that separates dreams from reality--and then do the Hollywood treatment on it and turn it into just another fucking dream.

This is actual/live footage of a 5yr old kid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8&feature=related
Thanks Jeff Menapace posted here in General Section first.
This kid is really fast
Watch that 00:37 to 00:38 second duck defense of the head

And the better way to inhibit your potential will be teach to him some Kata or traditional martial art...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1gdMEkCoko&feature=related

Fortunately MMA is rise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ittFskux2dY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXBL9GPtenM&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUe5GMumV7k&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixi6raMoBdE&feature=related