Brian's ZDK comments

Doesnt the fact that Bob incorporated muay thai into his system speak volumes on the effectiveness of karate?

Actually it speaks volumes about Bob's idea of incorporating what works.

As for Muy Thai not incorporating anything from karate, therefore karate doesn't work...that is, undoubtedly, bar none, unequivocally, the stupidest thing I've hear here since Kaarl started with his line of bullshit.

Muy Thai is a fooking ring sport. They don't allow them to fight on the ground, they don't let them bring weapons in, and nobody is jumping in and grabbing them from behind during their "matches." I would suspect if they did Muy Thai would very quickly incorporate techniques from other systems to deal with those types of attacks.

Why haven't boxers got methods to escape from full nelsons and triangle chokes? They don't fooking need to...those attacks aren't allowed in boxing matches.

Nick

Actually it speaks volumes about Bob's idea of incorporating what works.

and if its replacing techniques then it equally illustrates what wasnt working well.

brian, as nick points out muay thai is a sport so maybe a more reasonable question would be, has muay thai been influenced by other combative sports?

it didn't replace anything...why do so many martial artists think if they see another way of doing a technique they have to replace the old with the new? You can do both.

Nick

Yes. The good way, or the silly way.

As regards all those techniques to get out of full nelsons and triangle chokes? I guess they'll be in the Katas?

exactly where they are...you need to read some stuff by Chuck Merriman sometime...or Gavin...or Pat McCarthy.

Nick

or Walter Mitty........

Brian,

Walter Mitty is a character who was a fantasist...I can show people all the moves in all the kata and their respective applications...again, just because you weren't taught them correctly doesn't mean they don't work or aren't there.

Bryson...welcome to arguing with Brian (and just when I thought I'd got rid of my wife and her thought process )

Nick

Post edited.

I think that it is "Walter Mittyesque" to think that any grappling move can be effectively practiced in solo Kata format. What do you think?

Brian S wrote:I think that it is "Walter Mittyesque" to think that any grappling move can be effectively practiced in solo Kata format. What do you think?

You are quite right Brian. But kata are not for 'practice'; they are a 'catalog' of technique. The technique is actually 'practiced' in two-person applications.

And, before you ask, no we don't take the application from the kata (as that is arse-about-face, isn't it...?), the kata comes from the application.

And yes, you could do ALL of the applications without ever doing a kata.

Kata are merely the catalog of a karate school's techniques. Nowadays we might put them in a book, or on a video. It's just part of the paradigm.

I am recently back from Okinawa; the hammering I sustained over the two weeks I was there was testament to the fact that 'real' karate isn't stuck in that paradigm; it just gets on with application-based practice...

Are kata dated? No more than a Stradivarius or a Michelangelo or an E-Type Jag are dated. If you don't want to own a 'dated classic', fair enough, enjoy what it is you do...

We are in danger of going down that "Is Kata worthwhile" thread again. The problem for the pro Kata lobby being that so many of them think they agree... but end up saying that Kata has different uses and benefits.

But we agree that grappling techniques cannot be effectively practiced in solo Kata. Am I right?

wasnt karate incorporated into the japanese education system soon after Funakoshi took it to the mainland and that he also create the original katas? considering that japanese public schools are run like military institutions it would seem appropriate. straight lines, straight punches, all in unison. however it makes my mind boggle why someone would want to be involved in something that is clearly military indoctrination.

melvinfferd wrote:

For comparison, does the fact that BJJ practitioners have had to incorporate stand-up tactics since people wised up to their ground game speak volumes on the effectiveness of BJJ?

bad comparison. karate and muay thai are both standup arts. a replacement of, not an addition to, no?

Replacement of components; yes. Replacement of all of it? No.

The incorporation of the low roundhouse kick, the neck grapple and the elbow strikes; oh yeah baby...

But certainly not throwing out the whole karate syllabus, just the bits that were, in Brian's words, 'cack'...

melvinfferd wrote:wasnt karate incorporated into the japanese education system soon after Funakoshi took it to the mainland and that he also create the original katas? considering that japanese public schools are run like military institutions it would seem appropriate. straight lines, straight punches, all in unison. however it makes my mind boggle why someone would want to be involved in something that is clearly military indoctrination.

Yes it was incorporated into the education system and yes, Japanese karate had a nasty imperialistic streak right from the start.

But, NO, Funakoshi did NOT create the first kata. He developed a set of kata taken from elements of the original Shorin-ryu kata that he was taught by the likes of Itosu.

Please let all the guys doing Military Unarmed Combat-based arts like Krav Maga and many of the Self-Protection arts practiced by many of the folk in here, I venture to guess, that your mind is boggling at what they do... ;-)

was referring more to the practice of kata.

Brian S wrote:We are in danger of going down that "Is Kata worthwhile" thread again. The problem for the pro Kata lobby being that so many of them think they agree... but end up saying that Kata has different uses and benefits.

But we agree that grappling techniques cannot be effectively practiced in solo Kata. Am I right?

You make the mistake of putting the pro kata lobby in the one category. I agree much more with many of the anti-kata lobby than I do with many of the pro-kata lobby.

Many of the pro kata guys don't have a clue what they are on about. I'll be (not) the first to say so. That doesn't make kata shite; it just makes their argument shite...! ;-)

But, so that we don't get stuck on that argument; yes I do agree that you cannot effectively practice grappling in a solo format. Just like boxers can't effectively practice punching by shadow-boxing, or even hitting a bag; you gotta hit something (preferably something that hits back)

I've never said anything to the contrary...

out of interest bryson, what style did you train with in okinawa recently? is that a style you hold in the highest regard when it cones to karate?

id be interested to visit a club on the mainland if they have a branch. though i dont like some of aspects of karate training, especially kata, i fully admit that some karate practitioners are very good fighters.

in october there is the next bare knuckle tourny here created by Kenshinkan. hopefully some top burmese fighters will also be competing this year.

yes I do agree that you cannot effectively practice grappling in a solo format. Just like boxers can't effectively practice punching by shadow-boxing, or even hitting a bag; you gotta hit something (preferably something that hits back)

Actually you can effectively practice punching against a bag, or other impact device). In fact it is one of the most effective methods. Of course some of your training has to be with other people, but not all of it by any means.

The grappling is different because that involves manipulating someone else's body, rather than just striking it. See the difference?

As regards pro Kata people, I fell that the way they contradict each other merely serves to help denigrate the training worthiness of Kata in its entirity. But that's just me.

Brian:

Out of interest, did you ever read Gavin Mulholland's book?

I´ve never even done a day of karati, er, sorry, karate in my life, but I invested fifteen quid in the book after Nick recommended it on this site. It´s a very good read. Coming to it as someone completely neutral about karate, I found his explanations of the kata and their place in the system very convincing.

You can get it here if you´re interested:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-Shades-Black-Traditional-Building/dp/1840246502/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216367578&sr=8-1

Brian,

If you have any doubts about what Gavin teaches you can always test it.Just walk into DKK and ask Gavin if you can have a ground fight with one of his female black belts.I hope you have better luck than Goran Powell,he was a third dan when he joined the club and was almost choked out by a small female brown belt.

or brian you could also watch neil groves latest fight in cage rage, a tko win!

for those that have seen the fight id be interested in what you think of neils relative success. is it a good showcase for the art of karate? or would he be better at the sport if he left karate and joined an mma club?

I could also walk into anyones club in the world, and challenge them to a fight. But I am not going to as a) it would be a dumb thing to do and b) it would say nothing on the relative merits of Kata.

PDB - When people say things like "Why don't you challenge someone else...." etc. I do always wonder if they use that method themselves? If this is a legitimate way to go... Just who's dojo have you walked into and challenged mate?

Brian S wrote:
PDB - When people say things like "Why don't you challenge someone else...." etc. I do always wonder if they use that method themselves? If this is a legitimate way to go... Just who's dojo have you walked into and challenged mate?

Pete Bradshaw's in the seventies and I got the shit kicked out of me by one of his students.Back then it was common place to go round other people's clubs and try it on with their students.In my case I was daft enough to turn up at a Chinese club wearing a gi.Afterwards I spent a couple of years training with Pete.I don't recommend it at all,its just plain daft and you can end up badly injured,but I wasn't really talking about a challenge match in your case,just a bit of training so you can see what Gavin teaches.Goran wasn't having a challenge fight with the female brown belt,it was just a normal training session.I have only trained with a couple of Gavin's students but found them to be completley free of ego,thoroughly decent people.Go along,you might even enjoy it.

There are millions of people I might enjoy training with. What's your point?

Is it that Kata will help people train in grappling?