Brian's ZDK comments

Hey Nick

Did Brian ever clarify the issue he had in the other part of the forum re the ZDK clips?

Brian?

Happy to weigh in here, being an old ZDK alumnus myself (or off-line if more appropriate; don't want to hijack Nick's forum)

No probs. Check back later.

Cheers Brian; always up for a chat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZUJiJYhj88

OK, here we go!

Firstly, I have no idea how Bob Jones can name this as a "Traditional" Art. Bits of Goju Ryu here and there hardly fits the bill, does it?

From 30 seconds in to 1 m 27 - This clip includes some of the silliest semi contact stuff I've seen. Plenty of posing, with the cool looking hand waving.... and the constant sinking of the stance... ready to pounce! Grrrrr! All pretty silly, and all pretty useless. Counter productive for a self defence art.

Lots of sticking arms and legs out with no supporting body movement, and lots of sub concious cooperation, especially in relation to the distance the "fighters" keep. I love the way they keep raising their legs.... feinting.... only exposing themselves to a good kickin' in a real go.

Chins held nice and high and, for much of the time, hands nice and low. It's like a boxers birthday bash - and what a bash it would be.

1 1/2 minutes to 2m 52 secs. Kata. We've had that discussion.... what a pair of posers. What a useless waste of time.

Then more sparring. Gotta love those repeat kicks on one leg. Always a favourite of mine. The people who used to hit the deck when they tried 'em.

There was a place for everyone. We lived together 24 hours a day.... We trusted because we had shared..... The CROSSES were a must

OK, it was the very early 70s. The LSD hadn't yet worn off!

More Kata... more sparring.... more of the same.

5 minutes 5 seconds. The highlight. Some crow. At least he meant to be funny.

He talks about how Bob "protects all the big stars." That's oft used by martial artists to obtain some kind of credibility. But, especially in the 60s and 70s, who gave these martial artists the job? Just who said they were qualified to "protect" them? Probably some aide who liked Kung Fu - that's who. After all, it was back in the days when all you had to do was assume a Karate stance and emit a kiai! Then people ran off! If only they hadn't learned what the phrase "Paper Tiger" really meant?

We then move on to a few demos against an "attacker." Typically these "attacks" are highly telegraphed and unrealistic affairs, involving set piece statue moves (it's a set piece.... then he stands like statue whilst Master Bob does his thing). Even the strangle from a straight arm position is used... The biggest, and most useless, cliche of the lot.

Then the young lady being "strangled...." How her leg comes straight up into the groin. What nonsense. She'd get murdered. Then the "lets see what happens when I pull her in nice and strong." Oops! A little shoulder barge! Another succesful "defence." She'd get murdered again. Is that pssible?

Sword work at the end. I know nothing of sword play, so I'll refrain from commenting.

All in all I bet the ZDK guys were up there with the modest best of 'em back then. But that stuff, techniques and training methods, are horribly dated.

Martial Artists survived back then because everyone believed in the flick of the wrist and 20 men dropped dead nonsense. They know better now. I know that this does not represent all that ZDK is, and is only a clip. But that does not show them in a great light.

I know that this does not represent all that ZDK is, and is only a clip. But that does not show them in a great light.

No, as previously mentioned, it was done in an era where we didn't have you tube and digital video cams etc...I can count on one hand the amount of times I saw them present at gradings, demos etc which are not events that are representative of regular classes or training. Also, security cameras didn't exist (not in venues that weren't making millions who could afford the hardware which cost thousands in those days and dind't produce a good image either)

Firstly, I have no idea how Bob Jones can name this as a "Traditional" Art. Bits of Goju Ryu here and there hardly fits the bill, does it?

Are you confusing "Classical" with "traditional" again, you naughty plod you. Is Ishin-Ryu traditional? It's made up of Goju and another art. Is Goju traditional? It descends from Southern White Crane. Is Tae Kwan Do traditional? It's shotokan with kicks. Bob took Goju, changed enough of it to be uncomfortable calling it Goju and instead called it ZDK standing for "the best of everything, in progression." We adopted the principle of "if it works, we use it, so the art was constantly evolving." When I first began training for example we had 23 forms to black belt...that was later dropped to about six. We taught traditional blocks when I joined, later, when I was about a 1st kyu - if memory serves - we dropped the traditional blocks altogether. Constantly evolving, hence "in progression."

Chins held nice and high and, for much of the time, hands nice and low. It's like a boxers birthday bash - and what a bash it would be.

Boxers tuck their chins in because it provides great protection for it...very true. Hunkering down behind that shoulder and glove though cuts your peripheral vision way down which is not an issue in a ring against one other guy who stands in front of me in a similar position. When you move into the middle of a brawl involving a bunch of people coming at you from all directions you now can't see what the fook is happening. You want your head up looking around. Look at wood block prints of the Samurai who took on multiple opponents with swords...why are they not tucked in...they have to have their heads upright to discern what is coming and where it's coming from.

As for it being a bash? Really? I stood on the door of that club as a sixteen year old brown belt and beat the snot out of all the boxers that came my way including some rated local ones. I also beat the Fijian ringer that William Cheung turned up with and beat enough of the boxers at the training hall with Jeff White (a former world champ) that they wanted me to climb in the ring and fight which I did...and I beat that one too.

Bob and the guys ran the security at every major night club and rock and roll concert in Australia for about 25 years...do you not think during that time we ran up against boxers? Seriously Brian...sometimes I think you make this shite up just to get a rise. (We also had a bunch of boxers join ZDK...Jeff Else, Mike Ceruto (SA Champ), Dave Hedgecock, Dave Berry et al...not the other way round)

Gotta love those repeat kicks on one leg. Always a favourite of mine. The people who used to hit the deck when they tried 'em.

I've used them...I've yet to hit the deck throwing them. In fact Bryson mate, chime in here - didn't I use some on you in the Nth Qld games masters division thingy I won?

After all, it was back in the days when all you had to do was assume a Karate stance and emit a kiai! Then people ran off! If only they hadn't learned what the phrase "Paper Tiger" really meant?

Funny, I have a bunch of assault charges from that era...just who was I fighting if they were all running away after I assumed my stance? What about Sunbury pop festival in which 67 skinheads went to hospital and ZDK made the national news (the first time )

Bob had a company called troubleshooters in which he supplied bouncers to clubs to control the epidemic of violence that was in the clubs at the time. The promoters who ran the club ran the pop shows and bought the big names in. They'd seen how effective Bob and his company were at controlling the violence which is why they were hired, and not because people ran away when we flicked our wrists at them.

Where do you think Gary Spiers got his ideas of a security company from? He was one of ours in Oz before he left for half killing a couple of Army guys picking fights one nights. Guess they didn't get Brian's memo about running away when you see the karate guy assume the stance. Gary's nickname in Zen Do Kai at the time was "the Animal" because he kicked some guys head through a drain in the footpath outside a club (the firemen had to cut the grate to extract the guy's head)...I guess he was another punter that didn't get your memo Brian.

As for the tv show stuff...just that, tv shows. I've done them enough to know that the producers are tossers who have definite ideas of what they want...they're as bad as journalists who write headlines such as "Nick gets in for his chop" or "Nick gets a kick out of karate." (two headlines I actually have in my scrapbook sadly )

All in all I bet the ZDK guys were up there with the modest best of 'em back then. But that stuff, techniques and training methods, are horribly dated.

Er..yes, it is 1970 after all...did you catch that bit?

Martial Artists survived back then because everyone believed in the flick of the wrist and 20 men dropped dead nonsense

No...wrong...martial arts survived back then because it worked...it's actually the modern, make a million bucks teaching eight year olds day care McDojo shite of today that doesn't work.

Clive on GTs old forum confirmed a query about ZDK one night that yes indeed, they had the reputation in Australia of sorting out the troublemakers at most major venues in Oz.

Incidentally, either Bob's or Mals organization is one of the official companies providing close personal protection training in Australia which is now regulated by the govt so you're bodyguarding because they know kung fu is completely off track.

A lot of the guys who were working celebrity protection in those days are still working it today.

Nick

We can all form our opinions on the content of the video clip(s). Remember, it begins circa 1970, a time when many karate classes resembled jazz ballet in pajamas (some still do!).

Brian’s opinions on the public perception/standing of Bob Jones & ZDK in Australia are about as accurate as you’d expect from half-a-world-away - total misguided.

Nick’s memory reads pretty much the way most of us over here remember it. The general public in Oz were in awe of the ‘karate guys dresses in black’ stationed on night club doors and at rock concerts. Most trouble makers were sh_t scared to cause trouble, and those that did usually finished a distant second. The big flare-ups often made the papers and only further fuelled the mystique.

There was barely a big name visit Oz for decades who didn’t employ Bob Jones’ guys for security. Were they qualified to protect them? You could probably argue that one either way. Did they get the job done? – no doubt on that one. Fact is they kept getting the repeat business and no ‘stars’ got harmed or wasted along the way.

You can criticize the videos Brian but don’t try to change history!

The ‘d’ and ‘s’ are a little too close together on my keyboard – hence the typo in my last post - they didn't wear dresses!!

Here’s a random grab from an on-line magazine relevant to this ZDK topic:

“As I mentioned, back in the seventies to early eighties I was doing a bit of bouncing work. I worked a lot of venues like Festival Hall and the Sunbury Rock Festival. Security has come a long way since then.

Back in those days all you needed to have to work crowd control was the Bob Jones cross hanging around your neck. There were no licensing requirements back then, so to find someone in security who could hold a reasonably intelligent conversation, as well as do their job effectively, was a bit of a bonus.

As a result I found myself working the stage looking after bands like Queen, Deep Purple, Rod Stewart and so on".

Note particularly: Back in those days all you needed to have to work crowd control was the Bob Jones cross hanging around your neck.

Extracted from http://www.securitysolutionsmagazine.com/Articles/SO01.pdf

To be honest I wasn't impressed either but not for the same reasons, perhaps, as Brian. I wasn't impressed for the same reason I'm not impressed by looking back and most of the old footage of karate in general. Those clips look pretty close to any Yamaguchi Goju Kai sparring clips I've seen also from back then and earlier. I've seen Shotokan clips from the 60's that look a little more clean lined and "sleek" but at the same time looked too rehearsed or prearranged, very unrealistic. The best old footage I've seen was a bit later in the 70's and was Kyokushin's "Fighting Black Kings." But there again it is different to modern Kyokushin sparring.and looks "old." Looking back at old karate always looks like a joke , to me. It's like watching old comedies before cursing was allowed in movies....sometimes I wonder why i laughed back then. All the old karate clips look silly and don't compare to today's fighting methods. I think that's a good thing and it shows we learned something.

Back in those days karate went unchallenged because it was a mystery. There was the fear of the unknown. these days they have been tested and lost. The fear is gone. But that's karate's fault for trying to compete with sports. Karate isn't meant to be a sport but they want to have it both ways.....it didn't work and they lost respect.

The old ZDK clips look just that...old. No different than any other old karate clips. By modern competition standards kata has gone of the aesthetic deep end. Looking back at kata champions of the 60's the new breed go "huh?"

What matters IMO is not where something was 30 or 40 yrears ago, but where it is today. Progressive or steeped in the old dogma.

Tommy

Brian,

What Nick said...

PS, Nick, I don't remember you using any multiple kicks; from memory, you did sit me on my patootie with a very classical/traditional mae-geri (front kick, for the non-karadee folk...), you big long-legged bostitch...

Fancy..... let's asl Brian what his problems are with the clip.

And then lets ignore the clip, and produce more anecdotal waffle about how great ZDK was.

Ok Brian, I'll address your points in turn (which I thought Nick had done; I would harldy say he ignored anything...)

BS: Firstly, I have no idea how Bob Jones can name this as a "Traditional" Art. Bits of Goju Ryu here and there hardly fits the bill, does it?

BK: Firstly, at the time of most of the snippets on this vid, Bob was barely out of his relationship with Yamaguchi's Gojukai (the same place guys like Steve Morris and Gary Spiers were for a time after this if I am not mistaken), so the karate he was doing at that time was still heavily Gojukai. And yes, he still called what he did karate at this time. When I joined in the early 70's, it was still called 'Australian Goju' (prior to the change to ZDK). Secondly, we might be arguing (as is oft the case in here) about terminology. Is Goju itself 'traditional'? Miyagi took disparate bits of Chinses kenpou systems and glued them together into what became his system. Bob did much the same. Perhaps its not so traditional now, but it sure was back in 1970. It's all a bit contextual, Brian...

BS: From 30 seconds in to 1 m 27 - This clip includes some of the silliest semi contact stuff I've seen. Plenty of posing, with the cool looking hand waving.... and the constant sinking of the stance... ready to pounce! Grrrrr! All pretty silly, and all pretty useless. Counter productive for a self defence art.

BK: Again, this was about 5 minutes after leaving the Gojukai back in 1970. Context, Brian. Bob has since gone on to bring Muay Thai into Oz, incorporating Muay Thai into the body of the system. But hey, Muay Thai is 'traditional' as well, no?

BS: Lots of sticking arms and legs out with no supporting body movement, and lots of sub concious cooperation, especially in relation to the distance the "fighters" keep. I love the way they keep raising their legs.... feinting.... only exposing themselves to a good kickin' in a real go.

BK: Yep; lots of Gojukai cat-stances from the lot of them. It's 1970... (the record's stuck; the record's stuck...)

BS: Chins held nice and high and, for much of the time, hands nice and low. It's like a boxers birthday bash - and what a bash it would be.

BK: See my last...

BS: 1 1/2 minutes to 2m 52 secs. Kata. We've had that discussion.... what a pair of posers. What a useless waste of time.

BK: I won't go into the kata discussion here (that's a whole 'nuther thing!), but suffice it to say, I was never a fan of the 'personal kata for 1st dan grading' policy in ZDK, as this is the sort of thing it produces. That being said, one of the guys here, Billy Manne, would rip your head off and shite down your neck still today (at what's gotta be close to 60 years old). His made-up kata at around 20 years old in 1970 does not reflect the 40-odd years of training and on-the-ground experience the guy has.

BS: Then more sparring. Gotta love those repeat kicks on one leg. Always a favourite of mine. The people who used to hit the deck when they tried 'em.

BK: Asked and answered, methinks...

BS: There was a place for everyone. We lived together 24 hours a day.... We trusted because we had shared..... The CROSSES were a must
OK, it was the very early 70s. The LSD hadn't yet worn off!

BK: This vid was compiled for an internal ZDK anniversary bash. You had to be there...

BS: More Kata... more sparring.... more of the same.

BK: More things I don't need to address, then...?

BS: 5 minutes 5 seconds. The highlight. Some crow. At least he meant to be funny.

BK: On a Melbourne TV variety show of the 'Tonight Show' & Letterman ilk. It is what it is...

BS: He talks about how Bob "protects all the big stars." That's oft used by martial artists to obtain some kind of credibility. But, especially in the 60s and 70s, who gave these martial artists the job? Just who said they were qualified to "protect" them? Probably some aide who liked Kung Fu - that's who. After all, it was back in the days when all you had to do was assume a Karate stance and emit a kiai! Then people ran off! If only they hadn't learned what the phrase "Paper Tiger" really meant?

BK: And who else was protecting people back then? Bob was arguably the first celebrity bodyguard. Rolling Stones. Joe Cocker. Fleetwood Mac. Etc. I don't know what your point is, Brian. It's not like the clip is up to give him some sort of credibility, as you have stated; it is a variety show character telling the truth about who the guest was...

BS: We then move on to a few demos against an "attacker." Typically these "attacks" are highly telegraphed and unrealistic affairs, involving set piece statue moves (it's a set piece.... then he stands like statue whilst Master Bob does his thing). Even the strangle from a straight arm position is used... The biggest, and most useless, cliche of the lot.
Then the young lady being "strangled...." How her leg comes straight up into the groin. What nonsense. She'd get murdered. Then the "lets see what happens when I pull her in nice and strong." Oops! A little shoulder barge! Another succesful "defence." She'd get murdered again. Is that pssible?

BK: Again, some context. This is the 70's; we have all progressed a wee bit since then. To be fair tho, the 'little shoulder barge' was actually a head butt from memory. But, it is what it is...

BS: Sword work at the end. I know nothing of sword play, so I'll refrain from commenting.

BK: I'm with you... ;-)

BS: All in all I bet the ZDK guys were up there with the modest best of 'em back then. But that stuff, techniques and training methods, are horribly dated.

BK: Probably dated as far back as, what, the SEVENTIES...??? (are you serious...?!?!)

BS: Martial Artists survived back then because everyone believed in the flick of the wrist and 20 men dropped dead nonsense. They know better now. I know that this does not represent all that ZDK is, and is only a clip. But that does not show them in a great light.

BK: They know better now. Indeed. And they know better because of guys like Bob Jones, who took himself from the 'classical mess' of the 60's, through the 'where the hell are we going' stage of the 70's (the era represented by the clip), through to the full-contact/kickboxing/Muay Thai boom of the 80's and 90's, to the MMA and RBSD era we are in now.

As far as the 'producing anecdotal waffle' is concerned, I think it all just adds some context. You are seeing a very thin slice of time, close to 40 years ago, and slagging it as dated and unrepresentative. Ok, you win. It is dated and unrepresentative. I know this to be true, as I was training in ZDK from 1972, with some, if not all, of the guys you see in the clip. But, as I have said, young skinny Billy Manne doing his personal kata in 1971 and hardass Billy Manne in his late 50's after over 40 year's experience, is a different thing entirely. If I can't tell you some anecdotes to provide some context, how the hell am I gonna retort?! ;-)

Trust me, the ZDK guys groan just as much about things we were doing in the 70's as you are...

Tell me Brian, where was your own training up to in 1970...?

Oh dear... bit defensive today!

You "defend" the movements by distancing yourself from them. We were only 5 minutes out of Goju! So.... were they good fighting moves or not? You want it both ways.....

I couldn't care less about Billy Manne. We are talking about training methods. There are Navvies who could rip my head off (and yours). But I don't reach for my spade when it is training time.

On and on we go. You have that increasing habit of arguing with what I say whilst simultaneously seeming to agree wqith it.

Bob Jones moved on from this tripe towards full contact type stuff. Why the fook did he do that if he did not consider the cack on the clip as deficient?

Brian; you are a hoot, mate...

Defensive? How so? I just addressed each of your points in turn...

I did not 'defend' anything by 'distancing myself from it'.

Which part of 'Ok, you win. It is dated and unrepresentative. I know this to be true, as I was training in ZDK from 1972, with some, if not all, of the guys you see in the clip' or 'Trust me, the ZDK guys groan just as much about things we were doing in the 70's as you are...'

We must be reading a different post, mate...! ;-)

As far as you not caring less about Billy Manne, you made a specific reference to the 'posers' and their 'stupid waste of time'.

I merely referred to one of said 'posers' (feck; I hope Billy doesn't read that!) as an example of how it doesn't really matter a rat's ring bit what silly stuff we might have been doing back in the seventies; what matters is the progression that has occurred since then.

So, no 'defending' of the indefensible, mate. I am not arging with you at all (never mind developing an 'increasing habit'). Just providing some context.

Yes, Bob moved from this to full contact and other training and away from this. And he did so because he considered the cack on this clip as deficient (is that the answer you wanted? I am sorry if I thought we were having a conversation; perhaps you just wanted a yes or no answer...)

That being said, Bob was knocking guys out with this cack, as it was the best cack around at the time, and he was a hardass kickass mofo. When it started not working, he changed it, added to it, made it better.

So my question about how your own training might have looked back in 1970 wasn't a 'dig' (try not to read 'tone', just look at the words...), it was a genuine question. I'll word it differently: Is your training now the same as it was 5 years ago; 10 years ago; 15 years ago; 38 years ago...?

That isn't being defensive, Brian, it is highlighting that things change; hopefully for the better...

I'll have the 'real karate' and 'kata' arguments with you another time...!

;-)

You asked me to comment on the clips. And then you waxed lyrical about how things improved since the clips.

Its like asking people why they don't like your Ford Escort, and then defending it by saying "I have a Vauxhall Cavalier now."

Durrrrr...........

As I said mate; you're a hoot... This is like the Monty Python 'Argument' sketch...

This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction... No it isn't... Yes It is...

;-)

I wanted to know what it was you had issue with in the clip.

I then agreed with you that the 70's karadee in the clip was outdated, and provided some context as to why the clips are how they are.

Honestly, mate; I don't know what it is you want...

And actually, it's like saying "Yes, the old car was a lemon, but it was the coolest car I could get back then. I have a Toyota Camry now; I've wised up a bit..." Do you want me to tell you I LIKE the Escort so you can KEEP telling me how shite it was...?

I don't want anything. You created the thread.

Brian S wrote:I don't want anything. You created the thread.

I suppose we're all done in here then...

Yup!

Bryson Keenan wrote:Context, Brian. Bob has since gone on to bring Muay Thai into Oz, incorporating Muay Thai into the body of the system. But hey, Muay Thai is 'traditional' as well, no?

Doesnt the fact that Bob incorporated muay thai into his system speak volumes on the effectiveness of karate?

melvinfferd wrote:

Bryson Keenan wrote:Context, Brian. Bob has since gone on to bring Muay Thai into Oz, incorporating Muay Thai into the body of the system. But hey, Muay Thai is 'traditional' as well, no?

Doesnt the fact that Bob incorporated muay thai into his system speak volumes on the effectiveness of karate?

Mas Oyama blended Goju, Shotokan and some Chinese methods to create Kyokushin karate. Later he incorporated much from Muay Thai. Today Kyokushin is heavily influenced by Muay Thai, mainly in the area of kicking. As for the effectiveness of karate, Mas Oyama pretty much said (in his book "This is Karate ") that the Japanese misinterpreted the techniques and screwed it up from it's Okinawan/Chinese principles (point and circle).

Tommy

melvinfferd wrote:

Bryson Keenan wrote:Context, Brian. Bob has since gone on to bring Muay Thai into Oz, incorporating Muay Thai into the body of the system. But hey, Muay Thai is 'traditional' as well, no?

Doesnt the fact that Bob incorporated muay thai into his system speak volumes on the effectiveness of karate?

It speaks volumes on the effectiveness of Japanese sport karate; yes of course it does.

What it does more is speak volumes on the effectiveness of Muay Thai kicks and elbows.

Are you implying that karate is INeffective? Or not complete? I'd agree completely with the latter and argue strongly against the former.

For comparison, does the fact that BJJ practitioners have had to incorporate stand-up tactics since people wised up to their ground game speak volumes on the effectiveness of BJJ?

What Bob DIDN'T do was throw the baby out with the bathwater...

And - what Tommy said! ;-)

For comparison, does the fact that BJJ practitioners have had to incorporate stand-up tactics since people wised up to their ground game speak volumes on the effectiveness of BJJ?

bad comparison. karate and muay thai are both standup arts. a replacement of, not an addition to, no?

You know what? Thai Boxing seems to have sheeeeit loads of "influence" over Karate/Kung Fu/TKD when they enter the ring...... But do these arts have much influence over Thai in any way, shape or form?

Why No. That speaks volumes......

Influence my arse. People in these arts start to train just like Thai Boxers for the stand up game... yet often retain their Traditional title for the sake of the fighters ego and grade.