Terry O'Neill

A think lot of people look at Terry as a gold standard of a "streetfighter".

So you know him good and influenced him. With you ability to break down the essential components, what is you opinion on what made him that good?

Or is he just a natural born killer, natural athlete with the right mindset and knows how to produce explosive power, who's delivery system is karate?

Hi,

I'll add to this if it's not too contravertial over the years Ive heard stories that you used to kick the crap out of Terry in training, but very recently heard the opposite he used to do it to you.

Which is nearer the mark?

tc

T

Oh dear !!!!

theodore I tried to ask this as objective question.
I see this quickly comes to personal so I will delete this and may ask Steve via a PM.

The same happened on the old Dennis Martin Forum here as someone said someone kicked the crap out of Terry etc...bla bla bla.

Regards
Julian

Julian, in response to your first question which you deleted, I think you're right that karate was the vehicle by which Terry O'Neill expressed his violence successfully. And often people attribute the training methods of karate to the fighting success of people like Terry; I've said this before. From my observation, there's a lot more guys practicing karate who can't fight than there are guys like Terry, who can. So you have to really say that it's more about violent intent and being conditioned to a violent environment than necessarily Shotokan or anything else.

Whether or not he's the gold standard of streetfighters, I don't see how you can have a gold standard for streetfighters because how can you measure that? I think being the top streetfighter in the world was a label Terry got from Lito Angeles, who put together a list of people he thought were the best based on whatever stories he'd heard. That's another story.

With regard to rumours being circulated about Terry and me so that some guy can get a hardon over the idea that one of us beat up the other, let's put this one to rest. Terry and I were really good friends, and for various reasons that friendship regrettably collapsed. But there was never any physical fight, or anything resembling a fight, between us. Ever. We shared courses, much like the one I did with Mick Coup this weekend. I'd visit him at his home, and he'd come down to Earlham Street or Horsham. We never trained together as such. He'd usually pick my brain, or I'd just make him listen to what was going on in my head whether he wanted to know or not. There was never a rivalry; in fact that's why there was a good friendship.

Naturally I showed him things, and he was impressed by what I showed and told him; he said as much. But we never 'trained together.'

As for the question in the first place, Theodore, I find it's an inflammatory remark, intented to provoke, and in the future any such remarks will be deleted without the courtesy of a reply, and the poster will be barred from my forum.

Steve

Thanks, Steve.

From my observation, there's a lot more guys practicing karate who can't fight than there are guys like Terry, who can. So you have to really say that it's more about violent intent and being conditioned to a violent environment than necessarily Shotokan or anything else.

Steve, from my observation there's a lot more guys driving Ferraris who can't drive well than there are guys like Kimi Räikkönen who's number one in the Formula One standings. So, does that say that Ferraris don't work, or just that most people aren't willing to put in the necessary effort to be good?

Nick

Karate? I'd say it was more a Robin Reliant.

So, you blame the vehicle instead of the man driving?

Nick

Obrigado Luciano,

I had no idea what one was (and was afraid to ask)

Nick

Olá Mr. Hughes,

I had no idea what one was (and was afraid to ask)

Me too... so I "googled" and found this poster
Sorry about my intromission in this thread, but I agree with both:
If Karate and all that old martial arts don´t stopped in time (we know why), retaining constant evolution, probably their methods will change very much in actual world.
In my view, after all I read and saw about Morris Method, Mr. Morris made a "quantic jump" in his Goju background and opened a new martial art school/way (or "ryu/do"). From the Reliant Robin to one Maybach Exelero!
I´m trying make the same with my Aiki background too

Luciano, when I scrolled down and saw the Robin Reliant in all its glory I burst out laughing. And for a moment I was tempted to e-mail you to use photoshop to alter the number plate and to superimpose a driver, but then I thought otherwise! I tend to get carried away.

And Luciano, I didn’t make a quantum jump from Goju-ryu to what I do now; indeed Goju-ryu karate was just a very small part of my martial arts journey (and not, might I add, one that added to any ability or knowledge I might possess—quite the contrary).

Nick, are you seriously suggesting that karate’s training methods can produce that mindset, enhanced neuromusculoskeletal structure and experience to become a fighter equivalent to a top Formula One driver in a Formula One racing car such as a Ferrari?

Personally I don’t think so. And from my experience and research of karate’s training methods, I’d equate karate to a Robin Reliant instead.

That isn’t meant to take away from the fighting effectiveness of guys like Terry O’Neill, who made the best out of what they had. (That’s why I suspect, he and other top Shotokan instructors sought me out for advice. They were trying to get more out of a vehicle they had recognized was substandard.)

Although I don’t think this is a great analogy, if you want to make it then I’d say that both are important: the driver and the car. In the same way that a top Formula One racing driver in a Robin Reliant would most probably out-drive some of those posers you talk about in Ferraris (provided of course the engine didn’t blow or he burnt out the clutch, wrecked the gears, or the front wheel fell off). But that same driver would not be able to out drive another Formula One driver in a more advanced car--even an Austin Allegro, let alone a Ferrari.

In other words, training methods matter just as much as talent.

Whilst a Ferrari is always instantly recognizable by its logo and the elegance of its aero dynamic red chassis, a lot of serious thought based on long competitive experience goes into the overall design of the car, its engine, suspension etc. So as to remain ahead of the rest of the pack, its design is constantly evolving. Not to mention its drivers, who need to push themselves to their mental and physical limits to remain on the top.

Oh, if only the same could be said about karate and many other martial arts.

Well, Nick as an ex Porsche 911 turboman who occasionally topped 140 on a clear motor way, I’m off to take two of my kids on their sleepy time drive in my ageing beat-up Mitsubishi in which I dont expect to top 40. Times sure are a changing

PS please no jokes about Morris Minors

PPS and I’m sure Luciano, you can find a photo of the legendary Austin Allegra for the non-Brits amongst the forum. Thanks! Oh, go on, let’s have a Morris Minor too.

Mate,

An ex Porsche 911 man myself...and now I'm working on a Ferrari 430 F1 Spyder if all goes well. You'll have to come over and we'll go for a spin when I get it.

Nick

And Luciano, I didn’t make a quantum jump from Goju-ryu to what I do now; indeed Goju-ryu karate was just a very small part of my martial arts journey (and not, might I add, one that added to any ability or knowledge I might possess—quite the contrary).

Hey Mr. Morris, your quoted above is very important to me because I was in the wrong track until now!!!
So, what you said is:
"In despite of Goju not because of it".
That´s right?

... and the Ferrari man looked down at his ailing Porsche contemporary and said, "brother, why waltz when you can rock 'n' roll ...." (insert hum of Italian engine here)

Optymistic...

Mate, as much as I love the Ferrari, the F430 does zero to sixty in 4 secs. The Porsche 911 turbo with factory fitted power pack does it in 3.8. Now, only a bunch of silly car nuts will quibble about .2 seconds, both of them are ungodly quick and handle like they're on rails.

In other words it's a little like arguing over dating a Brazilian super model or an Italian super model...who gives a shite, they're both super models

Nick

Truer words, Nick, may never have been spoken.

Retired Navy captain friend of mine is president of his Porsche racing club. He put me behind the wheel of his 911. 70 mph and never out of 2nd gear. It was like a really good dream you don't want to wake up from, but all the while you actually ARE awake - make sense? It was magic on wheels. Germans must have little feet though, 'cuz my size 13's (U.S.) were making working the clutch a bit of a challenge. I had to kick off my shoes after the judge inspected the interior and shift with my toes pointed.

Then I rode shotgun with a guy who REALLY knew what he was doing and it transcended all known reality. I swear we were on two wheels through the slalom.

So, yeah, I can see how it's really a matter what tastes better, great beer or great beer?

A metaphor for what Steve tried to do for Karate:

it may have started out as a robin reliant... but look where it is now!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=439163

steve morris wrote:Julian, in response to your first question which you deleted, I think you're right that karate was the vehicle by which Terry O'Neill expressed his violence successfully. And often people attribute the training methods of karate to the fighting success of people like Terry; I've said this before. From my observation, there's a lot more guys practicing karate who can't fight than there are guys like Terry, who can. So you have to really say that it's more about violent intent and being conditioned to a violent environment than necessarily Shotokan or anything else.

Whether or not he's the gold standard of streetfighters, I don't see how you can have a gold standard for streetfighters because how can you measure that? I think being the top streetfighter in the world was a label Terry got from Lito Angeles, who put together a list of people he thought were the best based on whatever stories he'd heard. That's another story.

With regard to rumours being circulated about Terry and me so that some guy can get a hardon over the idea that one of us beat up the other, let's put this one to rest. Terry and I were really good friends, and for various reasons that friendship regrettably collapsed. But there was never any physical fight, or anything resembling a fight, between us. Ever. We shared courses, much like the one I did with Mick Coup this weekend. I'd visit him at his home, and he'd come down to Earlham Street or Horsham. We never trained together as such. He'd usually pick my brain, or I'd just make him listen to what was going on in my head whether he wanted to know or not. There was never a rivalry; in fact that's why there was a good friendship.

Naturally I showed him things, and he was impressed by what I showed and told him; he said as much. But we never 'trained together.'

As for the question in the first place, Theodore, I find it's an inflammatory remark, intented to provoke, and in the future any such remarks will be deleted without the courtesy of a reply, and the poster will be barred from my forum.

Steve

Hi

It wasnt intended to be inflammatory.

If I told you who told me it you could say I was, but I chose not to.

theodore

Theodore, I'm not into this bullshit. It's for the playground.

Theodore,

I am not trying to speak for Steve, he's more than capable of doing that himself. I am ,however ,being selfish and speaking for myself.

Could you please cut this kind of crap out? If people come on here, and start going on about nonsensical stuff like this ,Steve may get fed up and maybe even close the forum.

That would be a shame for people like me who value this forum (see, told you I was being selfish).

I doubt the majority of people who read/post on Steve's forum are interested in the "A mate of a mate of mine said he heard he once beat you up. Allegedly" style of "discussion."

Please mate, put a sock in it.

Too right Bloody Nuisance

I have been out of action as of late on Steve's end due to personal troubles but I can only concur with everyone else that Theodore's post had bad intentions plastered all over it.

Steve is the REAL DEAL and if you doubt my word then go train with him. It will be the equivalent to Dorothy going from black and white to color.

Jeff