shot placement for elbow strike

Hiya Nick

on another thread you said that you had never failed to put on anyone away with the elbow strike... have put someone away elbow striking to the top of the head?

now i know that you are an advocate of accurate shot placement so Im suspecting that you have always hit to the jaw? is that right?

along a similiar vein: have you ever punched someone exactly where you wanted to on their jaw with a good accurate shot and not have them go down or at least wobble?

I'm really just having a think at the moment about the importance of shot placement, especially as it relates to the old palm strike versus punches chestnut

cheers mate

Richie

Yes mate...the jaw or the cheekbone has always been the target for my "empai" (elbow). I would hate to hit someone on the top of the head with one - or anything else for that matter, unless it was a hammer.

Same is true of punching.

Now, I know the argument for the brain splash which is why you can safely knock someone out with a palm to the bonce but brain splash is only one way of several to knock someone out.

Bill Wallace always advocated hitting as low down on the head/cranium as possible to get the most movement out of the skull...something I'm a firm believer in. I did used to do a lot of drop hammer fists (tettsui uchi) on to guys skulls during sparring sessions in Zen Do Kai...eventually they put a stop to me doing it due to the amount of headaches and neuro problems people were experiencing.

Nick

thanks for that mate... you know when people sweat about not using punches because it busts your knuckles is this just due to bad shot placement do you think? I mean has anyone ever busted their hand/wrist banging someone on the jaw do you think?

I broke my hand after left hooking someone on the jaw.
I got the KO, but was in agony!

ah right
was it the solidness of the jaw that broke hand? was the guy like a big bull necked sted head?

when you say you broke it, was it your wrist, knuckles or lin the back of your hand?

i take it this would put u off using a left hook again?

Rich,

I was about to say "I doubt it" but then that bloody Si comes along and buggers it up for me Maybe he needs to drink more milk and just has chalky bones

All I can talk about is personal experience and first hand knowledge of mates of mine.

Personally, I've broken mine on a motorcycle helmet and once, clipping someone's skull with the little finger knuckle as opposed to the big two seiken knuckles.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'd bet Si did his little finger knuckle as well i.e. the boxers fracture, as it's common to hit with that one when trying a hook and it doesn't hold up well unless taped up and in gloves.

Nick

Hitting as low down as possible, true and like the guy in this vid placement really counts:

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1188703959/Weak_Punch_Manages_to_Knock_Some_Dude_Out

I completley shattered the bones in the back of my hand!
I have a prominent lump there now.

It hurt like hell, I had broken fingers before and I had used a left hook with NO damage on a couple of occasions...but this time I threw it very hard with a lot of temper and aggression (the fella was a local bully-a boxer that used to slap me round the head when I was a kid).

It landed as a vertical fist with the thumb uppermost.
it hit the side of the fellas jaw and he went spark out!

He is a bit strange now very subdued!

Oh yeah
I didn't break ANY fingers on that occasion...the impact was all in the back of my hand!!!

I try to land my shots with the flat part of the fist and NOT knuckles.
I have lost a couple of knuckles previously!

I love punching but I would be reluctant to throw a left hook pre-emptivley again.

Nick Hughes wrote:Rich,

I was about to say "I doubt it" but then that bloody Si comes along and buggers it up for me Maybe he needs to drink more milk and just has chalky bones

HAHAHA! I know! you could see where I was going obviously as the question was called "shot placement"... Ive damaged my wrists, thumbs and knuckles punching, gave myself the "boxers fracture", but that was by doing daft things like banging someone repeatedly in the top of the head full force
BUT
Ive never had some much as a scrape if Ive caught someone properly on the jaw (which isnt often I have to admit)- in fact there are two times I can think of where I didnt feel any impact at all and the guy just collapsed straight down

now Si5 has made this a bit trickier... if someone who has boxing experience, has got the KO with the same movement to the same target with no trouble before, its a bit odd that it breaks the hand on another occasion

did he have a massive neck Si? was he moving into your punch? did you hit him further back on the jaw away from the chin? Just trying to think why it would damage you like that.

Ive seen somones hand after getting the injury you mention (loked like his phalanges were trying to pop out of his skin) but he got that from hitting a reinforced steel door in a 'roid rage!

Julian
that punch video looks like a kyusho jitshu knockout a la Russell Stutely!

The punch landed on a large area of the jaw due to me hitting with a vertical fist.
So perhaps a lot of the impact was slightly higher up, say near the sideburn area!

I had time to wind up the punch, as I had already put him down with a left cross.

He is short and stocky, and a quite experienced boxer (like all his brothers).

I came out of a pub and saw 2 of them trying to put my brother away (not easy) so I popped him with a left and he went down, he got straight up so I hit him with a big left hook as he moved forward!

Rich
As you said it does seem odd, but I reckon it all depends on the opponent you are hitting! and of course where you land!
I have had success with it before but obviously hadn't landed it quite so hard on the previous occasions.

Im left handed but threw it from an orthodox stance.
Usually if I have time in the street I use the fence and get in a southpaw stance, then drop a straight left onto the side of the jaw (a lot less painful than hitting the chin) and its surprisingly easy to get a decent angle to land a straight punch on the jaw when the fence works properly!!!!
I drop the shot kind of downwards and very relaxed and its like a hot knife through butter and puts them down!

On the occasion with the broken hand it was a very tensed punch, maybe that was a factor???

its weird cos I tend to hold back when throwing a right cross and have never KO'd anyone with it

could be that the side burn part of the jaw being closer to the spinal column and cnetred over the main mass of the head is a lot harder and has less give than hitting the jaw nearer the chin, which should release the neck musles and allow the head to turn in the direction of force

rather than not turning or giving and forcing all the force to dissipate back through your hand.. and into the guys jaw muscle which is painful

Ive been banged there by a good greek army boxer and it didnt KO me but everytime i tried to eat for days after it stretched the muscles of my jaw and was fooken agony

hey, beat me up by all means but dont take away my capacity to eat, that is just cruel and uncessary!



I think its this masseter muscle that ive have damaged.. the odd occassion where ive had a clean KO has been with a horizontal fisted hook into the spot where the sign for "mandible" points to

Damn I hate when that thing gets stretched or whatever happens to it...eating, as you say, is a complete bear. I'd forgotten all about that bloody thing.

Nick

Rich, next time it happens get Bob to belt you equally hard on the other side...I'm curious if it will balance it out and set it back. Ok, mate?

What's the diference between "breaking" the jaw and "dislocating" the jaw?
I've always wondered if it's easier to dislocate it because it "moves" with the punch.

Nick Hughes wrote:Damn I hate when that thing gets stretched or whatever happens to it...eating, as you say, is a complete bear. I'd forgotten all about that bloody thing.

Nick

Rich, next time it happens get Bob to belt you equally hard on the other side...I'm curious if it will balance it out and set it back. Ok, mate?

HAHAHAHA!
I'll film the results for you mate

I sometimes get a similar feeling in that muscle in my jaw after a hard grappling session- why though I have no idea... must tell my training parnters that face barring is illegal

by my limited understanding, dislocating is hyperextending the jaw muscles and breaking is actually putting a fracture in the mandible bone

Thanks Richard,that's what i thought (that's why boxers keep their mouth shut) so the best way it would be a hook to the jaw to dislocate it.
But what's the best punch to fracture the bone?It seems quite difficult for me (maybe because i have no power)

Why would you want to either fracture or dislocate the jaw? A great many people will fight on and be even more determined to beat you to death.

I don't.
Just curious after reading somewhere one of the Krays used to offer a cigarrete and when the mouth was open bang!

that would be more for punishment and domination to cause lasting pain, your less likely to get the KO with the jaw hanging open

not really an S.P. type of thing to do, unles you are a bit of a sadist

This is one of the problems with the current 'new age' TMA schools (no sweat, no reps, kiai a lot). Can't fight but always have their mouth open yelling - makes them really vulnerable to having the jaw broken.

Tends to be a self correcting error though.