Judo and Jujutsu

Hi Dave,

Just read a book called Spirit of Budo by Trevor Leggett

fanastic book, very interesting.

Some of the things he talks about, I could type forever about, great stuff.

The question I have for now, Yukio Tani, was beating wrestlers in the West with his Judo and Jujitsu, thats really impressive, as I know how good the old wrestlers were, was Jujitsu in this period a lot different to now? because I can imagine, even today's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu struggling somewhat with a good wrestler (as they occasionally do now, in MMA)

and also, do you know a lot about Trevor Leggett, can't find much on him online

Thanks

Stefan

I'll be very interested to see Dave's reply, since he's The Fighting Historian (TM).

I'd speculate that, in those days, Judo/JiuJitsu were not well known in the West, and that it takes a bit to adapt to someone fighting a very different style. Today's wrestlers can know a lot about Judo, just as today's Judoka can know a lot about wrestling.

Dave?

First Trevor Legget .. he was an excellent judoka and competed often, but was more into the 'pure' judo.. the 7 katas and so on.He was 'big' in the 50;'s
I have a photo in an old book of him doing a beautiful swoop.

Tani? well firstly he was sponsored by William Bankier, a Scottish Strongman, who was also a wrestler.
Bankier was known as APPOLLON.

Now Bankier knew all the wrestlers and was very canny at seeing cash opportunities, and in training with Tani he realised that with 'pure' wrestling Tani didnt always win.. BUT whne the wrestlers stuck a judo jacket on, Tani beat them ALL with strangles etc, also a lot of small joint locks that werent well known.

So on stage the 'challenge' was always that the wrestlers had to wear a Judo Gi jacket., and it was often a strangle with teh collar type hold that Tani won with.
Also there are only about 3 or 4 reports of him tackling TOP liners in the wrestling world.. most were mainly 'local' heroes.
But not to take TOO much away from him.. he DID beat just about everyone, although the 'rules' as such were stacked in his favour
Tani NEVER wrestled without a jacket ... ever.

Bankier was good as a performer in wrestling and strength.. but was much better as a shrewd businessman

Dave, you're encyclopedic!

Went and found a great photo of Bankier (Apollo)



If it doesn't come through view it here:
http://www.maxalding.co.uk/Tyrrell/monte-trainer/mt02.htm

And this bit of bio from a page on Monte Saldo:

Monte now embarked on the next stage of his career, in partnership with William Bankier who at this time was a wrestling promoter known professionally as Apollo the Scottish Hercules, and together they opened the Apollo- Saldo Academy in the West End of London. Apollo had been a great strength athlete with a completely genuine act in which he harness lifted an elephant, and to demonstrate his versatility, performed a backward somersault over a low chair, carrying a 56 lb weight in each hand. He would jump over a chair carrying an 112lb weight and would then demonstrate his skill as a juggler by standing on the backs of two chairs and juggling two dinner plates while lifting a man overhead balanced on his right hand. He was a so one of the outstanding wrestlers of his day and a superb showman who was so well respected in show business circles that at one time the Variety Artistes' Federation appointed him "King Rat", regarded as the highest honour an Artiste can attain.

I am surprised to hear you say that cannot find much online about Trevor Leggett as among other things there is a website dedicated to his writings.

Here is an Obituary which appeared in the Telegraph on Friday 11th August 2000 and gives quite a bit of info:

TREVOR PRYCE LEGGETT, who has died aged 85, was a renowned judo trainer at the Budokwai in London — the oldest judo club outside Japan — where he influenced a gen­eration of British judoka.

As a shihan, a senior judo master, Leggett, or “T P’ as he was known, was fanatically disciplined. He never rested during training sessions and encouraged his students to do the same. During one of his classes they would be instructed to engage in 10 or more sessions of randori (judo free-fighting) a night, with each session lasting up to 15 minutes An invitation to join his Sunday class was greatly prized. Participants had to be at least brown belts, and virtually all the leading figures of British judo graduated from these sessions.

Once a year he held a katsu (resuscitation) class. Leggett would make the announce­ment: “All black belts downstairs to the lower dojo!” In the lower dojo (judo hall) the participants were shown how to revive some­body who was unconscious. Each member of the class would pair up and take it in turns to strangle his partner until unconscious, and then revive him. Leggett’s intense teaching methods were respected and feared. He had the knack of knowing what the student dreaded most and would ensure that it was confronted during training. Anyone caught half asleep on the mat would be buried with an enormous throw. Leggett saw judo as a training for life, as much about character development as combat on the mat.

Trevor Pryce Leggett was born in London on August 22 1914. His father, a professional musician, had been a musical child prodigy and the leader of orchestras under Sir Thomas Beecham. He did not approve of his son’s interest in judo, so to begin with Trevor attended sessions in secret.In 1932 he joined the Budokwai and studied under Yukio Tani, celebrated at the beginning of the century for taking on all corners in public matches. Tani was a strict teacher of the old samurai school and Leg­gett was trained in that tradition. During this period he also studied law at the University of London, graduating in 1934

He went to Japan in 1938 and there contin­ued his judo training. He gained his contest fifth dan, a level that even, today very few non-Japanese have achieved. He embraced the challenges set by his Japanese fellow students of judo, who were inclined to be unimpressed by the Englishman. On one occasion, after a training session, he stood for an hour in a cold shower when the Japa­nese man next to him refused to be the first to leave. In the end, both men agreed to leave together so that neither would lose face. When the Second World War broke out in Europe, Leggett was attached to the British embassy in Tokyo. In 1941 Japan entered the war and he was interned along with the other embassy staff. During his internment he con­tinued his judo training with his guards. He left Japan as part of an’ exchange with London-based Japanese embassy staff.

From 1943 to 1945 Leggett served in India at the British South-East Asia Military Head­quarters, where his fluency in Japanese proved a great asset. When the war was over he returned to London and in 1946 joined the external services of the BBC. He was a val­ued member of the Far Eastern section as Japanese editor. In 1950 his post was redes­ignated as programme organiser of the Japanese section. A sympathetic and courteous colleague, he was highly respected for his knowledge of Japan and its people and remained with the BBC until his retirement in 1969.

Leggett began teaching at the Budokwai in 1945, and in 1954 was made a senior instruc­tor. But in 1964 he suddenly severed all connections with judo teaching. He decided he had produced enough competitors and teach­ers. Instead he turned his attention to writ­ing books about judo, Budo (the Japanese equivalent of European chivalry), eastern philosophy (Adhyamata Yoga) and Zen Buddhism. While in Japan, Leggett had undergone a ritual training at a Buddhist monastery. Part of this involved sitting outside the building for a number of days followed by a prolonged period in the lotus position, once admission had been gained. When he returned to live in London, he became a regular lecturer at the Buddhist Society. A Japanese friend once described Leggett as “more Japanese than the Japanese”. Such was his love of Japan custom that be even wore a fundoshi, the loin cloth worn only by the most traditional Japanese man.

Leggett published 30 books, among them Zen and the Ways; Championship Judo Tai­Otosho and Ouch-Gari Attacks; Cloth and Stone — Stories of Yoga; and Zen and the Spirit of Budo. For his contribution to introducing Japa­nese culture to Britain, he was awarded the Order of the Sacred Treasure by the Japanese Government in 1984.

Hi Guys,

Trevor Leggett is a Judo hero of mine and when I first started training, I was given 2 judo books. One was a book by Trevor, and the other by Pat Butler. If anyone has any of his books, I'm interested in buying them.

BTW, the date that he stopped training is more significant than people realise. 1964 was the Tokyo Olympics, where Judo first appeared as a demonstration sport. Previously, he had had disagreements with Charles Palmer about the direction of Judo in the UK, and as a consequence he decided to stop training.

Ironically, the Japanese revered him more than we did, but there again they did the same with J Edwards Demming and are now the second largest economy in the world. Maybe there's a lesson there for us,

Cheers,

Mark

Mark,

Yes that is probably a little known and highly significant fact.

I guess however that change- even if you don't like it or its direction-
cannot be prevented.

I mentioned Pat Butler to Dave - or was it the other way round?- a little while ago. I never came across him but did have exposure at an early age to his books. Dave may have met him.