Ground work for self defence?

What do you need to realistically train for regarding fighting on the floor when training for self defence?

the 'ground' is the LAST line of self-defence
However you need to be competent in all 'lines' from 1-4

so YES you do, but you should need it last

there are only 3 ways you dont drown

someone saves you (bodyguard in combat)
you stay away from water (avoidance in combat)
you learn to swim (combat in combat)

the same with groundwork

do your best not to be there (on the ground that is), but be bloody grateful you trained it if you DO find yourself there.

I havent actually answered the 'what'as it would take too long.. but it AINT any grappling sport with rules.

Bite their face off , rip their lips open and get up then kick 'em stupid .. (basically)

David Turton wrote:

Bite their face off , rip their lips open and get up then kick 'em stupid .. (basically)

The years have really mellowed you,haven't they mate

David Turton wrote:I havent actually answered the 'what'as it would take too long.. but it AINT any grappling sport with rules.

Bite their face off , rip their lips open and get up then kick 'em stupid .. (basically)

So basically the Shredder then? I find it to be awesome in that range....personal preference mind you and I don't want to start another thread on the value or non-value of that concept!

Just to add to what Dave said...I teach two phases of ground combat. One is you're on the ground with someone i.e. he's crash tackled you and you're both on the deck. That's where you focus on getting him off you (Judo, Jujustsu, wrestling techniques to shift his weight and get out so you can get up) and getting to your feet fast.

Phase II is when you're on the ground under a mob trying to kick the crap out of you.

Nick

Nick Hughes wrote:

Phase II is when you're on the ground under a mob trying to kick the crap out of you.

Nick

so what would you say would be the best form of survival in that situation then ??

Get back up. .

pick one, use him as a ladder and climb up the fucker while biting his face off.

no alternative really.

Grab clothing, belts, etc. Wrap yourself around one of their legs even. Try to use this as a way to get from in the middle of them, as well as just getting up.

Fighting one guy with intent and desire is a nightmare, Multiples are worse still. Nothing different to be done except prioritisation where possible.

It's possible that they will fall over themselves trying to get to you. Probably anymore than three or four and they start to get in each others way. Any more than two and they have to have a plan of action that stops them becoming less efficient. Downside is that you are still screwed because the ones that aren't directly involved will likely become involved as the dynamic changes.

You can't give up so what choice do you have. Do what you do against single opponents. Just do more of it, more times for longer. It can be like drowning on dry land.

The guys I have seen have success with multiple opponents either won through ferocity, won through focus (fighting one guy at a time and then moving on) or they won through luck and the group moved on. There's no silver bullet, just some knowledge, some intestinal fortitude and some training to increase your odds.

I know it gets laughed at a lot but I did Systema for a couple of years and they had a few good drills for this. The first thing was to keep moving so we did ground mobility drills, rolling in all different directions. There was one drill where 4 or 5 guys would surround you and they could kick you in the body but tried to avoid the head and you had to make yourself as hard a target as possible.

If you couldn’t roll out of the circle and get up and run, you immediately switched to getting up as quickly as possible by grabbing the nearest person and hauling yourself up. This is what (other peoples’) love handles are useful for. As soon as you tried to engage one person, guess what the others did?

Luckily I never had to use it for real but one of the instructors was a bouncer with a serious judo/sambo background who ended up in a situation where a carload of blokes were trying to kick lumps out of him. He said he just kept moving on the ground and trying to be a hard target. He still came out of it with a broken arm but said it would have been a lot worse if he had tried to use any of his grappling stuff. Not to discredit grappling or anything but in that situation it wouldn’t have been a great strategy.

Heres an idea ! train for it, ideally two on one, if your gay get padded up, if not have two partners kick the shyte out of you whilst you try to get up assuming of course you dont fall to the ground in reality as youve just been knocked out...........did I just read in some posts there to be a vicious bastard.....I think I did

some valid points, but the MAIN point, and sometimes overlooked, is to actually DO something.
priorities are 'damage limitation' as opposed to damage eradication.. you WILL get hit. kicked etc, but not choked etc..
next priority is GET UP.. make it a goal with determination
the 'Body Climb' works as well as anything else.
and with no disrespect to the 'Shredder'.. there's more to being on the floor under a mob than using one ideal.
Biting is often better than 'shredding' as it leaves your hands free to do other things.

rolling about the floor is usually impractical as if you are surrounded (for want of a better term) then where can you 'roll' to....
No grab one around the legs, biting as you use him to gain your upright posture, and PUSH him away quite fast and hard as you rise..

gain your feet, make some distance, and get bloody vicious

Biting is part of the Shredder Dave. Its a constantly evolving concept rather than a strictly technique based response.

But I get your point though. Doing anything involving multiple attackers while on the ground will always have an element of risk but doing nothing can be the worst thing.

Paul Sharp (from ISR Matrix) said how he ended up (as a cop) with a guy on his guard and the others kicking him.
He used the bad guy as a shield and while the BG recieved a couple of kicks to the head he could get his pepper spray from his belt.
He sprayed him in his open mouth mouth

Thanks for the input guys. Found this youtube montage, it proves that it can really suck to be fighting on the floor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTKBRCXKIAU&feature=related

By chance I had a discussion with a guy who is a firearms cop in the UK about this subject. Whilst I was aware that he studied MMA and is due to take his blue belt in BBJ very soon. I thought that doing the job he does that he would have an understanding of the pitfalls of grappling in his line of work.

Little did I realise that he would start singing the praises of grappling when dealing with violent offenders. I pointed out to him the dangers of being on the floor with one person leaving yourself open to an attack by an accomplice or friend. This point was totally disregarded and never fully answered. I found it quite disturbing just how naive he was to grappling when dealing with possibly more than one person. Lets hope he doesnt find out the hard way.

This debate rears its ugly head every few months or so.

As a cop myself, I can tell you a limited amount of grappling is necessary for the job. As you've already mentioned Dave, yes you run the risk of being taken out by an accomplice when you focus on wrestling with one person.

Another point seldom made, for Police again, is weapon retention. I have around my waist a number of weapons that can be taken off me during a close quarter wrestle with someone and used against me. I'll be damned if I'm going to let that happen just so I can triangle choke someone who resists arrest!

Learning body positions, weaknesses/strengths, escapes etc are essential but need to be adapted to the environment you use them in.

Unfortunately for some Police instructors, and that includes NZ, they have fallen for the "BJJ is the be all and end all for self defence" marketing technique that floats around that style.

Mr Nobody wrote:This debate rears its ugly head every few months or so.

As a cop myself, I can tell you a limited amount of grappling is necessary for the job. As you've already mentioned Dave, yes you run the risk of being taken out by an accomplice when you focus on wrestling with one person.

Another point seldom made, for Police again, is weapon retention. I have around my waist a number of weapons that can be taken off me during a close quarter wrestle with someone and used against me. I'll be damned if I'm going to let that happen just so I can triangle choke someone who resists arrest!

Learning body positions, weaknesses/strengths, escapes etc are essential but need to be adapted to the environment you use them in.

Unfortunately for some Police instructors, and that includes NZ, they have fallen for the "BJJ is the be all and end all for self defence" marketing technique that floats around that style.

Thanks for the input, can I ask where your thought process is when you are approaching or being approached by an unarmed offender who has the signs of someone who could become violent. What are you thinking options wise?

Just on a related but not directly reliant point I don't hold BJJ blue belts in any significant regard since I saw them being handed out like smarties at a recent BJJ seminar.

I certainly wouldn't place a BJJ blue belt as an authority on grappling in any context.

Chris wrote:Just on a related but not directly reliant point I don't hold BJJ blue belts in any significant regard since I saw them being handed out like smarties at a recent BJJ seminar.

I certainly wouldn't place a BJJ blue belt as an authority on grappling in any context.

Wow! I always thought (possibly quite naively) that a BJJ blue belt was regarded as being an experienced rank and only given to very competent students. I didn't realise (again possibly naively) that the BJJ system had also been hi-jacked by the whole McDojo ethos. Can you give us more details on your experience Chris?

Hey Dave,

I can only speak from my limited experience but on the seminar I attended I saw Blue Belts being handed out like they were sweeties. Basically the seminar host walking around and tapping guys on the shoulder (some of which were mediocre grapplers at best) and they were walking away as blue belts.

I don't doubt at all that some BJJ clubs will have blue belts who are phenomenal but when I saw the belts being given after what amounted to about 60 minutes of eyes on supervision by the seminar host I threw up a little in my mouth. They were basically a rewarded for turning up and as these belts came from a very famous member of the Gracie family my impression wasn't a good one.

Now I know some of the guys who put themselves forward and asked to be "graded" and they are good lads, good students and decent grapplers. Others most certainly were not.

I was there with two other guys, both of whom were as good or better than the grapplers who were "grading" on the seminar and all of us sat on our hands when asked if we wanted to participate and be judged.

Contrast that with a recent CACC seminar I attended with Billy Robinson where he wont even acknowledge someone as having "trained" with him unless they have 20+ hours of heavy, challenging training with him personally. That's just for him to acknowledge that you may know ANYTHING at all His comment was "you can't even learn how to stand properly in four hours!"

[quote="DaveThanks for the input, can I ask where your thought process is when you are approaching or being approached by an unarmed offender who has the signs of someone who could become violent. What are you thinking options wise?[/quote]

Dave,

I can only respond according to what I've done so far rather than surmise about what I "would" do simply because every situation is different and the variables are huge sometimes.

I have used the fence a lot...it bloody works for me and you can see it in the offenders eyes as they are uncertain about what I am doing. Because I've trained with Rich Dimitri and his Senshido affiliate school in NZ, I've used the shredder from the fence a couple of times on people who were up for a fight on being arrested.

While I am reluctant to blow my own trumpet, I have found the shredder t to be damn effective and took the fight out of people very quickly or put them into a position where we could easily cuff them and get them to the cells. It has it's limitations but works for me just fine in close quarter situations.

In other situations grappling wise, I have found rushing people and closing the gap to be relatively easy as most people do not have any idea about what to do in that range. Once you've closed the gap though, you do need to know what you are going to do next otherwise you're in for a wrestling match, but I have found that people easily give up their neck and/or back and I've popped a choke on hard and straight away.

I have not found an offender yet (touch wood) who has still had the ability to try and fight you when they cannot breath at all. The choking technique(s), and they do involve a certain level of training, is very effective and I have used it a number of times to get people under control.

Additionally, we have O/C spray, batons (ASP and PR24), taser and firearms if necessary. I have found that the bottletop technique with handcuffs to also be very good for pain compliance. I once bottletopped a Pacific Island rugby league player out of his bed and onto the floor and there wasn't much he could do about it.

As for the thought processes involved....my objective is to get them under control as quickly and as efficiently as possible. I will be as dirty as I need to be and I will not play/fight fair...that is for the ring, and I will use any advantage I can take to "win" any scenario that involves use of force.

I want to go home at the end of the shift...not to the hospital.

hey Mr N,

I like talking to guys who have used the Shredder in real situations. I'm a fan of the concept, trained it with Dimitri at one of his seminars because I was really inteterested to know more and found it to be great.

My one concern is that I don't see it as a finisher. More as tool to aid in effecting a "self stop" from the bad guy or to transition to more direct and decisive action. i.e. blunt force trauma, choke or strangle.

When you used the Shredder was your mindset, "get this guy under control" or "win the fight"? Also, how quickly did you move to a secondary action from the Shredder. i.e. further strikes, handcuffs, colleagues bringing the guy under control?

cheers
Chris