Filipino knife work

Hi Dave

I recently started a Doce Palmes Eskrima class. One reason being that I resovled to get some weapon training under my belt this year.

Because of what you menitoned in another thread I feel compeled to ask what you think of the knife work there in.

The instructor has omited to do any knife work and told me he would do so non for a good long while until he knows the student. I must admit this is responsable of him. Therefore I've been swinging a stick for a couple of months.

Anyway this is neither here nor there. In another thread you didn't sound incredably impressive with the knife work and I was curious to your reasoning.

Cheers and AXE
Jagunco

I am afraid I will be guilty of repeating myself somewhat here mate..

From about 1967-68 I started realising the fundamental weakness in the traditional arts, or should I say in the ways in which these arts were taught. When that weakness was eliminated by a free-thinking instructor, the art developed valifity..

in karate I would say people like Terry O'Neil, Phil Milner and Steve Morris eliminated that weakness..

the problem I have with many indigenous combat arts is their emphasis on defending against themselves and not against 'modern (for each era)' street attacks.

The FMA knife work tends to be for example.. each man having a stick and a knife and each attacking and countering the other.. the odds of you having a stick and knife the exact same size as the stick and knife of your opponent, and both of you with the same offensive and counter offensive skills in 2007 Britain is as rare as a politicians promise coming true.

Latosa realised this and made changes in his escrima to suit.. if more did that then more people would see the value in traditional arts working in non traditional situations

Hi Dave,

Sounds like you rate Latosa, would that be correct? I just remember some criticising him a few years back. Not that I've seen any of his stuff but I think I may just check it out now as I want to start some kind of stick fighting.

Rezbi

Yes I did like him.. maybe because he was a bit unorthodox (like me)..

I know some did seem negative to him, but I think it was the TIME not the man... think of Geoff Thompson trying his ideas in 1964 when shotokan ruled and all had to be exactly as Kanazawa and Enoeda did it.

Yeah I know what you're talking about. Thanks a for the reply. Is there anyone in the FMA world that you do rate.

I've trained with JK form this forum and his Guru, who apparently does exellent pressure testing. Anyone in england you like?

Quite a few styles train the stick and knife system or sword and knife (espada y daga) and I agree that really this amounts to studying the artform part of the system. However most styles also incorporate knife on knife and knife on empty hand, some systems seem to take more of a practical stance than others, balintawak for instance in its knife defence concentrates on shanking types of attack. The stuff you are learning with the stick is very very similar to the stuff you do with knife, sword or empty hand. If you ask your instructor to show you how the technique of the stick can make the transition to defence against a knife he should be willing to show you.
I had a conversation with Diony Canete ( GrandMaster Doce Pares Cebu City Philippines) about this very thing last year and when he demonstrated you could see the correlation, but it does take a great amount of skill, its not just replace the stick with the knife but subtle changes in technique etc.

Respects to Dave Turton,

I have been reading the posts on this website for quite a while now.

This is my 1st time writing in any forum, if I am irrespectful, i apologize in advance. Im a mature student from the US studying in Cardiff Uni. Back in the US I did sessions and afew seminars in Haganah under Mike Lee Kanarek, Kali-Silat with Dan Inosanto, Sayoc kali, Harimau Sumatran Silat and Harley Elmore of Warrior ways to name afew.

Last year I saw a few videos on youtube on about Silat Suffian Bela Diri and I found them to be in the lines of "the right attitude" in combat. The descriptions given answered everything. I emailed him and apparently he is a silat instructor is in Cardiff.

I have taken afew private lessons from him, he is one of the highly skilled individuals with a blade I have trained with. But his mentality in training was different. When I read your comment on being "unorthodox", that was the word that eluded me, I can help but feel to drop a few lines. He only uses 3 forms or drills and the numerous variations that he showed me in real-time was jaw dropping. It has to be seen personally to appreciate it.

He claims that the skills he acquired are from his blade training, and the variations using different weapons are just from understanding the principles of the blade. He uses the blade as a "training tool" to acquire other skills in the process.

My questions:

1. What are your thoughts on them, in terms of the training process to acheive the desired result shown in the video.

2. Should we train to specialize in one specific subject and then implement the same principles on other aspects of self defense?

3. Seeing that weapons especially knives are used more and more in the part of the UK, what are your thought on training with weapons 1st and empty hands later in the progression of training?


I have links on some of his videos;

Knife defense and fighting - level one SSBD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfCyfk

Improvised Self defense tool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDGSJJ3rG6k

Fire arm Disarm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjCCDXN5Pew

Defense from the ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjumGcLXS0Q

Various Blade, Impact and Firearm Defense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYAXjKkLmJs

i was never sure what all the excitement about stick and knife training is for , i have developed an excellent weapons art anyone can learn in an 2 minutes , here it is ....
knife--stick it in em and twist
stick --bash em in the head repeatedly

be sure to avoid police, cctv , the guys mates/family/gang

you may now call youself master and wear any color belt you choose

Frank, thank you for the reply, but that is the views i would expect from a movie junkie. That is why I am asking the unbiased experience of Dave Turton as he is a highly respected martial artist in the UK, and his views on it. Someone who has been trained traditionally and knows that self defense is not to be bound by tradition.

The thing here is not to view it it 2 seperate training progression but as a whole, to develope a commons goal, i.e awareness in self defense.

To solve a problem, you have to understand it. I have been to many karate and jiu jitsu classes in the US where they have exellent hand to hand techniques, but when it came to defense against an edge and impact weapon, nothing can compare to the effectiveness of weapon based - southeast asian martial arts, like FMA and Silat. And there are alot of jitsukas and karatekas that would tell you that what they lack in thier training is the realistic defense against real street weapons.

To those who are closed minded, A stick is only a stick and nothing more and a blade is nothing but a sharp weapon, to stab or slash with.

But to a weapon oriented art, (im not sure about the UK, but in the US) a stick could range from a bat, a machete, a tyre-iron, a baton, a 4X4, etc and a blade could represent a broken bottle, a stanley knife, a home-made shank, a razor, etc. anything that could be used against you and you against them. Its all about training the awarness. That is why you see the CIA, FBI, the Secret Service, invites people like Inosanto, Ron Balicki, Pekiti Tirsia, Paul Vunak, The Sayocs, Dog Brothers etc, to train them because they see that weapons are a reality in the streets.

In Channel 5 News recently, they stated that "knife culture is a growing epidemic in the streets of Britain" and its truer in the States and parts of the world; To hear someone say"I was never sure what all the excitement about stick and knife training is for" and takes a piss about it, is just sad for someone to refuse the realities of training for self defense yet wish to be part of a self protection forum.

Now tell me, if you are in parkng space during the evening or just passing by in the park when now one is around and you are surrounded by a gang of 10 to 15 ASBOs or gang members armed with knives or bats or just plain empty handed, who just thinks its fun beating someone like you.

I dont know about you, i have a family with a wife and 2 kids to take care off, im not going to risk going "empty handed steven seagal" on them and hope its like what is in he movies. I would pick up the next best thing around me and expect to use it with full effect, to stop people from inflicting injury to me, better them then me. regardless of CCTV or Police, if they were to be there, then the would have been there. Its the weapons training that will ensure that i dont just swing wildly, but afirmitively.

So frank, why are you in a self protection forum again??

Jim, while Dave's away trying to figure out what part of the plug goes in what hole in the wall I'll throw my two cents worth in...

Not sure what the "them" is referring to in your first question. Is it the skills or is it FMA or is it something else? I'll wait till you get back to me on it.

2. Yes and no. As you mentioned in your last post training in one thing that can be used as another such as a knife in training being replaced with a screwdriver, stanley knife, broken bottle etc is alright but...

Here's the problem I had with the FMA explanation of sticks representing machetes. A stick is an impact weapon and therefore its targets are things like bones, joints and the outside of the thigh for example. A machete on the other hand is a bladed weapon and its targets will be things like arteries and soft flesh. You'd be wasting time hitting the femoral with a stick and likewise you'd be wasting it again chopping the outside of the thigh with blade. (unless it was excalibur and you could lop his leg off )

I had to modify my FMA to reflect this and now use the stick purely as an impact weapon and blades as bladed ones. Helped immensely in sorting the wheat from the chaffe.

3. I can see both sides of the argument but here's the empirical evidence I discovered. I'd been brought up to believe that a weapon is an extension of your hand and you should learn how to use that first before putting a weapon in it. My FMA guys told me the opposite of course.

I was in an FMA school in London years ago and during the course of the weeks I was there I was regularly getting snotted with sticks and knives alike. On one particular night the instructor had us put on gloves and do some sparring. I went through everybody in that room like a hot knife through butter. They didn't score a single technique and, from what I saw of their efforts on each other, they couldn't have knocked my gran out.

What had happened was they'd grown accustomed to the weapon doing the work. The leverage provided by the stick for example meant they didn't really have to develop any of their own. The cutting force of the blade meant they didn't need to generate any. Take away their weapons and they were as much use as a handbrake on a kayak.

Hope that helps.

Nick

Jim Allen wrote: "knife culture is a growing epidemic in the streets of Britain" and its truer in the States

I'm not 100% sure about that if you were to look at it from a per capita perspective. As US citizens we should be paying attention to what is happening in Britain, because much of what is happening there is on its way here.

Nick Hughes wrote: the empirical evidence I discovered. I'd been brought up to believe that a weapon is an extension of your hand and you should learn how to use that first before putting a weapon in it.

Personaly I think that about sums that up because without the mechanics and understanding ... well than a stick is just a stick and a blade is just a sharp piece of steel.

I have spoken to Dave about this in the past.

Dave recommends training empty hand first followed by weapons. The reason being that if you train weapons first you can become to dependant on the weapon and the chances are you won't be carrying it with you should the need arise. Where as you always have your hands, feet etc with you all of the time.

From my experience of FMA training most schools tend to concentrate on knife fighting over knife defence. Knife defence to them usually means knife vs knife which may be all well and good in the Philipines but not so applicable in the UK in this day and age (although some may say different). First has to be Knife vs empty hand and then you can progress from there.

Don't get me wrong, i think the FMA are great just alot the the training needs to be adapted slightly to make them more applicable as self defence systems rahter than battlefield / fighting / martial arts.

IMHO...When talking Philipino Knife fighting we must remember that there are many different styles of Kali / Escrima out there.
Also there are many different Teachers/Guru's.
Therefore there are many differing ways.

Personally I am not a Philipino stylist, but a Kung Fu practitioner ( though I have studied some other Arts along the way) ...I have much respect though for the Arts and the Philipino ones that I have tried. (Insomuch that my daughter is named Kali-Jade out of respect for the Art...LOL ).
Possibly the Kung Fu is the most diverse Art as there are over 300 different styles, but the Philipino styles are many too. I enjoyed the ones I have experienced and they do indeed differ.

Also tried a little GoShinKwai a few years ago and enjoyed that too.