A couple of questions on Goshinkwai

Alan Bec Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:26 am

A couple of questions on Goshinkwai
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by alex_f

Hi Dave,

happy new year
A couple of questions on Goshinkwai system, as you're the only one I know that teaches it and you've *tested* it.
First: are there any strikes you can use pre-emptively in a serious street confrontation? Or do you teach your students boxing strikes for this goal?
Also I'd like to know something about a typical Goshinkwai class: how much grappling/groundfighting and how much scenario training do you train?
BTW, It's quite strange such a street-oriented system is not known here in continental Europe, isn't it?

Thanks and all the best
A.

by Dave Turton

To go last question first.. themain reason Goshinkwai wasnt known in Europe is simple . Kenshiro Abbe was the only instructor to leave the Butokukai in Kyoto who taught it. He setteled in the UK, s it became a UK/Japanese thing.

We have a lot of strikes used pre-emptively, and straight palm is an opener we use, also straight finger jab to eyes, close in back hand strike to groin,Back hand to side of face, shoulder charge etc etc .

We practise many scenarios, in fact a common theme is to ask out guys who work the doors for situations they have seen/encountered, then replicate them for the class.

Typical session..

Short warm up (not a keep fit session)
The basics for that session.. might be kicks, strikes, controls, takedowns throws, etc etc.. but we do ONE aspect each session, including 'theory' work, i.e. dicussion etc on maybe approaches, follow ups , whatever
Next partner work on their individual grading requirements, they just split up into groups to train on their own level of stuff.
This would involve and and all of the methods we use, including grappling, wepaons, striking/ Some will ask to work on 'bits' such as heavy bag work, or ground work or whatever they feel they need that session.
Some of my black belt students might spend the whole session just practising Tai Sabaki or advanced footwork etc.

A typical session rarely exists, as the reuiremnets and desires of teh students dictate it.
A news items for example might bring up the question of say, "Fighting in rain", so we discuss that and practise how we would do it.. whatever

Hope this helps and thanks for asking

by alex_f

Hi Dave,

thanx for your reply, it sounds very interesting -the doormen can always bring some useful real experiences for scenario-training. Goshinkwai looks like a complete system(striking/grappling/groundfighting plus pre-emptive work).
Just a last question Dave: is Kempo Goshin Jutsu (what Kevin O'Hagan does) somewhat a derivative of Goshinkwai?

cheers
A.

by Dave Turton

In a small way mate.. I did teach Kevin many years ago.. but not sure how much influence I had on him.

The two Japanese words Go & Shin can be translated as ..

GO = to save .. Shin = Body or Heart
So GOSHIN = To save the bdy .. or Self-Defence.
Any style or system that uses the term Goshin uses it to mean self defence normally. Its the prefixes and suffixes that gives i their identity

I searched many a year before I found the Goshinkwai Yawara school and trained there well over 25 years, when I left I kept part ofthe term as a mark of respect to my origins, but altered it enough to show some differences

Frankly, of I had ever found a more complete street system, I would be doing it

Thanks for you interest

by alex_f

Hi again,

here are the only Goshinkwai clips I could find on the net:

http://homepages.tesco.net/alun6/homep_filesX/main_html_filesX/DVDvideo.htm

I noticed they train barefoot... anyway, pretty stuff. I like the "ghosting" footwork and the take downs from behind, which I practice a lot in my wingtsun training. How do you rate these moves BTW ?

by Dave Turton

The current Goshinkwai yawara is NOT the exact same system as I have practised for many years. Alun Williams was taught mainly by GORDON Wardield, where I was taught mainly by JOHN Warfield (then for a few years by Gordon)
The two brother had totally different approaches in many ways, althought their roots were identical.
Both brother being personal students of Kenshiro Abbe. However GORDON went to live and work near Scarborough, where he spent 10 years training under Masutatsu Otani, that strongly influenced his art, and subsequently tehre were some heated 'discussions' between John & Gordon on the best way to perform.

Alun is bloody good, but the coloured Gi's are only worn at his club and no other in the Goshinkwai.. my clubs/student dont wear Gi of any sort. Alun also 'opened' the system to juniors and kids, something unheard of in my day.. John and Gordon would teach ANYONE under 16. FULL STOP.

Alun DOES sometime spractise in shoes as well as bare feet, as I do.. many lesure centre simply wont allow you to train in their mats unless bare foot.. no discussion.

So maost Goshinkwai clubs do both.. we will train on ordinary floors in training shoes, and when on teh mats (unless we have permission) we train barefoot.

The rear takedowns are an integral part of the Goshinkwai system at intermediate level, but other methods overtake them as you progress..
Thanks for seeeking out the clips mate

by baloobear

Nice one Alex, I enjoyed seeing these clips, 1 or 2 down points though are, in the multiple attackers situation they all attacked very martial artsy....1 at a time!

This could be the editing, but I doubt it.

Again excellent footwork, it looked a little like Aikido to me, but, there was no tables, chairs or other people to fall over on the large matted area. Can this footwork work in tight venue's like a pub?

Dave, how practical is it to & still be able to strike damaging targets if you have manauvered behind your opponent?

This Instructor seemed to be standing behind the opponent but striking the front of him, not ripping his face or striking his throat.

I liked the first clip, when the Instructor delivered a forearm strike to the attackers face before flowing into strikes.....looked a little like Kempo karate.

Actually, this system didn't look to much like the stuff I've seen Dave teach. Dave you mentioned on another thread you like shinkicks as a pre-emptive strike....leading upto a right cross. These are shown in the clips, are they distraction technique's or are you actually trying to break the leg?

Any news on putting some clips of yourself and Karl demonstrating on the SDF website?

by Bri Thai :

I thought the clips were poor. No offence to anyone.

The "attacker" seemed to perform a slow "step through punch and hold" move that I was used to in a version of Japanese Jiu Jitsu I did once. No real attack comes in like that. And, as has been said, the "multiples" were only a collection of weak single attacks.

I don't know whether these guys could do it for real or not. But those demos are a poor advert either way in my view.

by Dave Turton

Cant argue with that..

As I have tried to explain. the Goshinkwai Combat System (mine) has its roots in the Goshinkwai Yawara System

Its original style as such was very very venomous and viscious. So much so that John Warfield, and myself couldnt get students starting for years and the system almost died a death,
I resigned from the Goshinkwai Yawara in 1990, due to a disagreement with the then head GORDON Warfield, who incidently threw a couple of others instructors out for being TOO viscious.

The whole set up started being made more acceptable by teaching kids, and to some degree 'watering' it down.

there are a couple of instructors left in South Wales who teach it the 'old' way.. Jeff Keen being the main one.
Anyone who attended the last SDF Seminar in Batley saw a Goshinkwai Yawara 4th Dan teaching and frankly he was totally awesome.. The feed back was of how those attending were frightened of him and his venomous combat.

I stopped teaching (Not practsining)pure Goshinkwai about 10 years ago, instead I concentrated a bit more on the Self-defence areas.. yet my origins were always Goshinkwai.

I do NOT practise the same style as is in the Alun Williams stuff, it stemmed more from Gordon Warfield not John as I said earlier.

I once stated (and still believe) that the John Warfield approach to the Goshinkwai was the most awesome stuff I had ever encountered, and I latched on to him as a student for over 20 years in the hope that some of it would rub off on me.

The different lines of growth are nothing to do with my involvement as they happened just before I left in 1990 and accelerated just after , up to about 93 when it became what you can see on that website.

We share the same origins in the same way that we all come from our Great Grandparents, but the generations bring about changes, and although a great many of the techniques are the same or similar, their actual 'approach'can differ greatly.

I am not trying to apologise for Alun's stuff nor praise it too greatly either. In fact the LAST time I saw Alun (prior to John Warfields funeral in August last year)was when I graded him to GREEN belt on a course in Abergavenny in 1989.

Maybe some day when I get the technology I will post some REAL Goshinkwai, but if anyone wants to witness it up close, then come to the masterclass sessions in Doncaster.

People who know me or have known me for a while (including my friends on this site) know my lack of 'trumpet blowing' yet consdier this.
Would Geoff Thompsdon, Jamie O'Keefe. Darrin Richardson, Kevin O'Hagan and so many others seek me out for tuition if what I taught was 'POOR'

with apologies as always for any arrogance this might seem to demonstrate.

any further questions or comments on the Goshinkwai.. I will be more than happy to do my best to answer them.

Cheers

Alan Bec Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:34 am

by alex_f

Originally posted by Dave Turton:

Its original style as such was very very venomous and viscious. So much so that John Warfield, and myself couldnt get students starting for years and the system almost died a death,[...]
I resigned from the Goshinkwai Yawara in 1990, due to a disagreement with the then head GORDON Warfield, who incidently threw a couple of others instructors out for being TOO viscious.

Great! Don't get me wrong, it's not that I advocate being viscious with students and practitioners, but I do think one has to RISK something in the gym, and to be tough, in order to avoid being severely maimed just outside the gym...

I'm looking forward to see some REAL goshinkwai clips

by DannyL

Hi Dave,

As pretty much a beginner in martial arts, could you explain Goshinkwai a little bit to me? What defines it or seperates it from other arts? What was it that impressed you so much about it? What exactly was it that made the John Wafield stuff so awesome?

Thanks in advance,

Danny

by Dave Turton :

This could get a bit l-o-n-g.. but here goes.

Most martial arts follow very much set ideals. The reason for the influx in MMA and self-defence clubs is to act as a balance against the very rigid traditional arts. yet very few go DEEPER , most go wider, that is they add ideas and techniques in the hope they are improving their system. Sometimes they are often they arent.
Its one thing adding sugar to coffee to improve its flavour, but continue to add, and you end up with 50/50 coffee to sugar, then wet sugar, then a cup of just sugar. Totally opposite of your point of origin.
The same with say a sponge cake.. add jam OK, add Cream OK add Coconut, Ok, until you add liver and onions.. ONE wrong addition ruined the whole cake.

This may upset many people but I have been asked..

99% of martial systems are playing games and teaching TRICKS.. the techniques are not relevant beyond mastering the manipulations and impacts of and on the human body..

The simply prepare the student for further work to come.

There are THREE levels of pure combat..
Level one is the "He punches I block then counter" stuff that is as much use as a wedding reception to the Pope.
Level Two is the personal development stage, whereby students of combat get to be individual and work on their own unqiue aspects,doing freestyle combat if you like .. no restrictions. BUT the timing of it should be more of preemptive combative than a defensive one.
You set out to totally dominate him physically.
Level three works on the deeper needs such as development and projections of all your aggressions and powers. It takes you deeper into the realms of combat and their relationship to Anatomy, Physiology, fear, genetics etc.

You study how to totally be the dominant one in combat. How to be prey that becomes the preadtor. You 'tap' into his psyche and cause him to fear you.. well more than fear he should be in DREAD of your ferocity and power, your capacity to hurt and damge and destroy at levels he couldnt dream of in his worse nightmares. Its primeval. Its bestial, its venomous.

John Warfield chilled my soul on our first lesson he drew me in and frightened the shit out of me with his presence.
He made me find my weaknesses and fears and face them.. (the Fear Factory Incident)
He made useless all I had learned before he could counter anything by his methods.. he made me feel my fitness and power and wrestling/boxing and ju-jitsu abilities that took over 18 years to develop seem worthless.

He could hurt you in ways you ddnt know the human body COULD be hurt. his knowledge of balance, anticipation, Tai sabaki (Foot work and body control), was awesome beyond description.

I was in awe of this man, I feared him at every session, yet respected him massively. Off the mat he was so quiet nice and humble that you started to think he had a split personality, and in a way I suppose he had.
He was TOTALLY uncompromising on the mat..you learned in THREE ways.
PRACTISE .. PAIN.. SWEAT... you suffered for your art.
Every session I did over 20 years was a form of physical and mental torture

If you got a busted nose, you just bled until the end of the session.. no going off the mat to wash it. If you got winded or knocked dizzy you were just stepped over until you stood up again.. and so on
Yet at the end he was all caring and compassion.. but never DURING a session.

"This is NOT a bloody game or a sport .. its COMBAT" he would say "If you want FUN, sleep with your girlfriend"
"We are here to make you better than you were"

You could ask anything you could always question, but when his eyes drilled into your soul you found the answers yourself.

Since I started Goshinkwai in the early 70's after 10 years doing other stuff.. there have been less than 20 people made the grade in that 'real' stuff as John called it.

Most martial arts club members want hobbies or to keep fit or to learn some self-defence .. show them the real stuff and you never see tham again.
In order to do something I (and other Goshinkwai Black Belts) 'watered' it down to varying degrees.. at my top end (Black Belt and above) there has only been a little watering.. some like Alun Williams practically developed a different style of goshinkwai in order to attract members.

For 20 years John Warfield NEVER had over 12 on his mat at any one time. I have had as few as 5 at my clubs. people say they want it, but rarely return when I give it .. some do and they become like Karl Blackwell or Neil Hall.
Others are getting there like young Dave Brown who at 19 and with NO training at all other than Goshinkwai took the british heavyweight Title at Goshin ryu last year.His first fight as well.
he works the doors and at 19 is feared all over the town he works in.. yet he has only just started tapping into the the real depths of goshinkwai combat.

Sorry for the length.I hope this goes a little way in explaining just a little bit of the real Goshinkwai

Thanks for asking

by Peter

Dave,

Sorry for going slightly off the thread here but I have a question.

With the intensity of the training you mention, do you think that there is more to be gained from training at this intensity all of the time? Can and should a person train to this level every session?

I must admit that I have left the mats to stem the tide of blood before and even went outside to be sick before!

And why is that whenever I have been marked on the face it is always on the nights when I am taking my wife out afterwards

Serously tho' do you think that we are progressing less on "technical" nights as opposed to "full on" nights?

Pete

by Dave Turton

No you are not, its just that you progress on different 'lines'..
There are sessions whereby you can spend the whole time doing .. say .. err.. Footwork.
You will improve at footwork. You can breakdown techniques into the various components and work on them.
I have had 1000's of sessions just practising say a step and grab move , just to get it right.

when I said the EVERY session under John warfield was like that (intense) I meant under JOHN..not when I trained at other sessions. I trained with John on average once a month for 20 years.. The rest of the time I split my sessions into what I wanted to work on at that session. SOME were totally intense, others much more technical.
But John would only teach those who HAD some technical skills anyway. Yes every session under John was as hard as I described, but it was only once a month .. 12 a year.
The rest of the time i trained other methods.. so sorry if I gave the impression that we played the lunatic asylum combat team every day.. not so.. just everytime I trained under John and some at my own clubs as well.

I dont believe that for one minute you could, nor should train like that every day.. your would go totally fruity.

Thanks for asking the question so I could fill in the blanks in my previous statement

by DannyL

Dave, many thanks for the answers above, it's absolutely fascinating stuff.

by Bri Thai

It is inspiring stuff. Truly inspiring.

by alex_f

I subscribe to Bri Thai's comment. When I read this I wondered why so many human beings, nowadays, love to delude themselves playing around in "gyms" with fancy "martial arts", and they still think to be learning to fight... Something I learned is that if you don't sweat and spit blood, you're just playing. In the MA I train I just met 2 or 3 instructors that do the right thing. The others are fake fighters, no matter their "rank".

by Stuart rider

Dave,
in an earlier post you mentioned that
your students will train weapons in the class.
What weapons do you teach in the Goshinkwai?
Did you learn the weapons from Gordon & John Warfield or other instructors?

Do you know if they did any weapons training with Master Abbe?

At what level do you teach weapons to your students?

by Dave Turton

Hi Stu

The weapons we do are all modern street things.. mainly segregated into "Sharp Edged" ."Long and hard (Sticks)" and "Loose " (Chains etc)

The stick stuff is based on Escrima and Lathie, with some Shillelagh. The shorter stick stuff similar to (and taken from) Yawara Bo.. Also the Weeble.
The knives on Indonesian. Filipino, and European systems of sharp weapons.

The 'loose' stuff from by biker days when we fought with polished bike chains etc.

My own personal weapons skill base is through quite a few instructors, although most of the knife work was from Gordon Warfield who was ace at knives.

Abbe taught mainly Tanto-Jutsu (Japanese knives) Tan-Bo (japanese sticks), and how to use everyday articles (my actual favourite).

In the Goshinkwai we introduce weapons at Green belt then expand after 1st Dan

Incidently one of Gordon warfields favourite teaching methods was to have you stand with your back to a table full of everyday articles, such as combs keys, etc ..whatever was handy really
Then as the attacker came in your reached behind (without turning to look) and grabbed whatever, then you had to use it in your defence.
Had some bloody fun with THAT one I'll tell you

Thanks for the questions Stu.

A couple of questions on Goshinkwai

A couple of questions on Goshinkwai

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