How does Goshindo compare with Goshinkwai and the SDF

Hi

As far as I understand Goshindo is based on traditional Jujitsu and adapted to realistic street self defence

How does Goshindo, as taught by Peter Ratcliffe compare/contrast with Goshinkwai and SDF sylabuses/techniques in general ?

Further, if you choose to answer, do you feel that other styles or Jujitsu in the UK (and infact other traditional martial arts) are lacking in their training for self protection on the street ?

Thanks, Nick

Whew .. BIG question there mate.. hope you dont fall asleep reading the answers ..

I will TRY (honest) to be as diplomatic as possible... I get in enough trouble as it is Ha Ha

Right first we have to understand a very broad overview of what Ju-jutsu IS.. inthe 21st century

Right Traditional ju-jitsu doesnt exist much these days.. thats is OLD style traditional pure Japanese ju-jitsu.. styles like Tneshin Ryu, Shin-no |Shindo Ryu et al are rarely taught.. so what we end up with are two kinds of roots for modern ju-jutsu

GAIJIN or foreigners ju-jitsu .. that is styles developed by NONE Japanese people
NIHON Ju-Jitsus.. MODERN styles derived from old stuff but with loads of alterations

then we have the GO-SHIN styles.. which to add to the confusion.. a sthey dont theoretically actually have to even BE Ju-jutsu..

Go-shin is interpreted as "Save the body" or self-defence.. so any style with the Prefix or Suffix GOSHIN is a style derived to be used as a form of self-defence.. There is no monopoly or copyright on the TERM Goshin, which incidentally should really be written as Go Shin or Go-Shin..
so there are terms like Goshin Kempo .. and Goshin Jutsu etc.. even the other way round like Kempo-Goshin-Ryu

So Goshin is self-defence orientated as opposed to being traditional say like Yari Jutsu (spear skills)...

And this is where the waters get muddy..

Ju-jutsu in the UK is nearly half a century OLDER Than Karate in Japan.. so not only is it better established, it has had longer to get diluted, altered, added to etc.

Pete Ratcliffe's Goshindo more or less means the "Way of Self-Defence", and as you say is again more or less trad JJ re-hashed to be more self-defence orientated, but staying within the parameters of ju-jutsu.


The original Go-Shin-Kwai that I studied under the Warfields wasnt even a ju-jutsu style but a YAWARA style (which pre-dated Ju-Jutsu) and was a style that had more 'flexible' parameters regarding what could and could not be added/altered etc.

However at the time of the establishing the Goshinkwai in the UK, the Warfields had to approach the Ju-Jutsu people (actually back then it was the BJJBC or British Ju-Jutsu Board of Control .. now gone) as it obviously didnt fit into any other 'slots'

So the Goshinkwai got tagged a ju-jutsu when really it wasnt .. Like Tang Soo Do and TKD being called Korean karate as it was in the early days..

When I left the Welsh set up I asked permission to use a similar but slightly different title so as not to imply I was PURE goshinkwai Yawara.. the title I used was "The Goshinkwai Combat System".. this was under the permission of John warfield.

I used this term as frankly I had made some changes in the methods I had been taught by the addition of more NON Oriental stuff like Catch, Savaux etc..

Then (still with me mate .. told you it was l-o-n-g).. When I starte dthe SDF I realised that for many established martial artists teh transition from say Karate/TKD/kcikboxing etc would maybe too much of a culture shock and change so we re-adapted the Goshinkwai syllabuses into the SDF ones, although many of the additions were in the 'softer' arts like awareness etc.. but we had decide dto work more with what people already HAD and adapt THAT rather than ask them to turn their backs on X number of years of previous training..

so SDF is BASED very heavily on the Goshinkwai, but with other aspects included to hopefully make a system that has wider application sin real self-defence matters as opposed to what I term ( not derogatorily) as 'Dojo Self - Defence'..

Now Ju-Jitsu in this ocuntry for a while was tryingto be controlled by a few people, and their methods imposed on members, this to me weakened many styles for the street as they needed to have a more'club atmosphere and 'fun' (or maybe recreational) approach rather than stay with what it was started as ... a form of personal combat

To me (and this is a personal opinion based on my 45 years involved).. Ju-jitsu in the Uk is not really ideal for the street.. but like the MMA/street debates can provide an excellent GROUNDING, but not an end in itself

Hope that helps a bit

Many thanks for that.

You have answered my question and more - a nice insight into how things intertwine.

IMHO Ju Jitsu in the UK has more relation to Judo (the whole art not the sport) than to real traditional Ju Jitsu.

If I remember correctly Judo was introduced original to the UK as Kanos Ju Jitsu before the name Judo had been coined.

The TENSHIN RYU school had used the term Judo (often then spelt Jiu-Do) before Kano ... this is why he had to register it as Kodokan Judo, the prefix Kodokan being used to denote it was different to Tenshin Ryu Judo

Every time i do more research I seem to come up with another modern style and strangely enough often another older traditional style I hadnt heard of..

it is massively important though to remember that Kanos' original Judo bears little resemblance to modern day judo

the scales have swung from a more or less semi traditional martial art, to a modern sport of jacketed wrestling

also Kano was ONLY 22 when he formulated the system.. he wasnt the venerable old man often shown in photos..
there are many political reasons for the success of Kano's Kodokan Judo over the other arts

Dave, have you ever heard of Zen Kempo Ryu its quite big here in Bedford its run by a fellow called Cliff Witcher 7th Dan...Is it a pure style or a mix and match and do you know anything of its background....Also why is UK Ju jitsu so unpractical for the Street..when in books like the Fighting Spirit of Japan the Ju Jitsu described was so Practical for the Tokyo Red Light Areas...Is it just because its watered Down or is it Cultural...


Many Thanks Matty

Hi .. Yes I know Cliff slightly.. but not really enough about his style to say much. From what I know he has taken elements from a couple of styles and blended them to suit his self.

What a great book.. "Fighting Spirit of Japan".. E.J. Harrison was the genuine first ever english black belt in anything..

frankly Matt.. its always down to application and training..

very very few systems or styles really train for serious personal combat.

Sport never really existed.. the old tournaments were often serious full on fights with severe injuries and deaths a regular occurance it simply HAD to work.

I remember being told that 60% of beginners in Ueyshiba's early Aiki-Jutsu schools retired through injuries,, which was not as severe as TAKEDA's school the Daito Ryu when 80% retired through injuries..

in truth and this is NOT Rose tinted specs or an 'old' (steady) man's nostalgia, but severe training hardly exists.. HARD training .. yes.. severe training .. NO

when the GOAL and INTENT is the destruction of an opponent is the prime reason for its existence then the applications must be severe..

we are NOT feudal Japanese, regardless of the state of the violent streets of the UK in the 21st century..

it used to exist here.. George Silver mentioned that in training it was serious but controlled.. on the streets and in duels it was kill or die..
few of us really want that level.. for 99% of the UK's martial artists its a fun pastime with hopefully some cross overs into self-defence

Cheers Dave..oh 'The Fighting Spirit Of Japan' is a must read for anyone..thanks to your reccomendation i ordered a copy and although it took a month to arrive it has remained in my car ever since..ive read it about 15 times..usually while the missus shopping i can be found reading that wonderfull book!!!!

I think we (us young uns) forget sometimes how violent places like Japan were and how gruesome the training was much of the time...its such intresting stuff..i suppose thats why they needed all those Bone Setters etc..


PS..Dave Do you know anywhere in the UK where traditional BVone Setting is still taught?

Thanks for the Awnser...Matty

What is the value of severe training if the odds are 60-80% that you will have to retire with injuries?

which is the reason it died out Brian..it lived grew then died by its own ferocity.. BUT in its defence, it was a product of its time.. but its time is gone.

You know something about the example I will give Brain..
for YEARS the public was fed the idea that British Bobbies were all "Dixon of Dock Green".. so much so that it became the stereotype.

yet when I was in and around some of the .. how shall I say .. Less NICE sections of Manchester and Salford, especially when TAG and Tactical response Units were called to deal with the types of criminal coming out of Moss Side, Salford, Cheetham Hill etc, then Dixon would have lasted about 4 seconds..

But are you telling me (not you Brian I mean generally) that we dont need the 'special' units of GMP and the armed forces sections like the SAS and SBS etc.. and THEIR training is brutal, so that when they face the odds they can prevail.

It all depends on how high are the goal posts..

average guy, married 2 kids, nice wife, job house, goes training twice a week in kickboxing, would expect to get fitter, more confident and believe he had the abilities to defend himself and his family should the occassion occur,.. he would only be half right.

the 60-80% dropout rate (whether via injuries or bottle) is LOW compared with Selection for the SAS .. or even some of GMP's units wouldnt you say Brian

The REASON for feudal Japan's approach is no more.. so the training is more or less no more..

BUT envisage a Mad Max scenario (a bit daft I know).. we would need it AGAIN then

Matty .. the only people I know who come close to the old 'bone setters' are some traditional Chinese medicine guys..

I bet you've heard some tales of Abbe and John warfield's abilities as 'repair men' eh?

Cheers Dave,

Id heard a little about some of the healing stuff , but no detail and nothing on Bone setting, if you have the time id love to hear those tales..and Im sure many others would as well..

Shame about the old Bone setting isnt it..i would of loved to of learnt some of that stuff..Im sure the Filipinos are pretty good at it as well there must be someone in the UK somewhere teaching it....

Thanks again

Matty

I can see what you are saying Dave!

But don't get too carried away with the selection of "special units" in GMP. The criterion are not what they were, and a very very basic level of fitness is all that is required.......

well mate I will bow down to your knowledge on THAT one..

I guess I was just trying to find an analogy that suited the thread

in truth and this is NOT Rose tinted specs or an 'old' (steady) man's nostalgia, but severe training hardly exists.. HARD training .. yes.. severe training .. NO

Hi Dave,
what exactly do you mean by 'severe training'. I have my own idea, but I figure that might be soft compared to what other people mean by the phrase.

For example - the most severe session I have seen was the 1st Dan Goshinkwai grading at Walheof a year or two back (the two Steves). Cracking stuff, but not something you would want to do twice a week, every week! Then again it might have just seemed so rough because I had only been with the club for a month or two at that point. Hard to say.

How would you define rough, and where on the spectrum would you put say, an average Goshin session, or a masterclass?

Just curious.
Paul

Good point .. Steve Galley at the Waltheof can be a bit severe now and then cant he?

OK .. the Master classes arent severe or hard really, they are quite mild, in fact they are a learning session, that's designed to impart knowledge via the explanation. demonstration and practise of methods..

HARD session usually mean hard physically, like a beasting, they are intended to drive the techniques deep into muscle memory, but like a coach pushing a runner for example, its just encouragement to further physical levels that often doent require any great mental involvement..for example, if you are punching a bag hard and the instructor is behind you shouting "ANOTHER or MORE", theres no real great thought processes going on.

SEVERE training is at a level of physical and mental involvement that should leave you really worried. almost panicky that you might be injured or die if it isnt stopped...which might not be thebest example.

but take an example like a test in the army wherebye you not only have to reach cetain checkpoints in a certain time, but you have to do the map reading, calculations, etc etc as well as the physical... the stresses are greater

so the severe training piles on several types of pressure and keeps it there with the body, mind and senses working overtime..
like bayonet drill in WW2 was intended to say "if you dont stick HIM.. he will stick YOU".. that doesnt leave room for lethargy or laziness

Galley, severe?

Nah mate, I could take him out with one hand behind my back.


Of course I would need a tall rasorwire fence between us, and a big f*cking gun.
And even then I would be nervous

Paul