question for Dave

I can see why Richard would have the hump.

This guy seems to be telling outright 'porky pies'

Everyone on this forum seems to like a laugh and joke, and of course there are sometimes differences of opinion, but as a rule I don't think there is too much petty squabbling.

However, I see why Richard has laid to rest these fantastical claims.

I wouldn't want to train or be associated with a Walter Mitty character either.

Hi all,

This guy seems to be telling outright 'porky pies'

Seems, or is?

Yes, it was funny that he asked about his muscles (saw that before) but it doesn't make him an asshole.

Are we now saying that Dave T is not right by associating with this guy on his forum? Are we still waiting for a response from Dave?

How do we really know who is telling the truth?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse but I am getting confused as people are quick to side with Richie against a guy who has not been proven to be an asshole (I can't see it yet!) on a post questioning the comments of a renowned SD instructor who has his own QA section on this very website.

Am I being thick ? I feel like a the kid who goes "Why?" to every question. I just want to understand .

Alex

Alex, I'm not 100% certain who is telling porkies...I was 'reading between the lines' after what Brian (who runs the forum) said...

...but this guy claims RG was unknown on the door scene AND also that the two of them worked some of the hardest doors together!

He claims to barely know RG - yet also says they worked together, served time together and were hospitalised together!

A massive contradiction in terms, some 'porky pies', or an honest mistake?

Hmmm...you decide!

SammyT wrote:Alex, I'm not 100% certain who is telling porkies...I was 'reading between the lines' after what Brian (who runs the forum) said...

...but this guy claims RG was unknown on the door scene AND also that the two of them worked some of the hardest doors together!

He claims to barely know RG - yet also says they worked together, served time together and were hospitalised together!

A massive contradiction in terms, some 'porky pies', or an honest mistake?

Hmmm...you decide!

This would indicate they do know each other....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjarDWIvk80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UapkfpGktQ&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N1r-JoMo9k&feature=related

Thanks Sammy,

Well I'm having a real problem deciding as the plot has thickened on OUTCOLD's thread on his forum:

http://www.outcoldfightclub.org/fight-talk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=374&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=20

Just have a read at the latest stuff posted today. Again, who do I believe when both sides seem equally vehement towards each other.

This is what gets me, this ganging up schoolboy-esque mentality before the facts are known. Call it a pet peeve of mine but I do like evidence of things before I make judgements. Am I wrong for seeing things like this?

Alex

DAlexRBSD wrote:Thanks Sammy,

Well I'm having a real problem deciding as the plot has thickened on OUTCOLD's thread on his forum:

http://www.outcoldfightclub.org/fight-talk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=374&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=20

Just have a read at the latest stuff posted today. Again, who do I believe when both sides seem equally vehement towards each other.

This is what gets me, this ganging up schoolboy-esque mentality before the facts are known. Call it a pet peeve of mine but I do like evidence of things before I make judgements. Am I wrong for seeing things like this?

Alex

Hmmm..indeed, the plot thickens. If I am actually naive in any way it has been in giving people in the MA world the benefit of the doubt. But then again, I am not a martial artist anyway. I shall do some digging. It is only fair we know the truth, considering certain people's attitudes and the treatment Wagner and Kaarl got - whether deserved for not (and I don't give a toss either way - caveat emptor)

Dave,

Don't blame yourself for being naive, recent research indicates that taller individuals tend to be 80% more naive than their shorter counter parts. Your long gangly limbs distract you from making objective judgements.

Bloody Nuisance wrote:Dave,

Don't blame yourself for being naive, recent research indicates that taller individuals tend to be 80% more naive than their shorter counter parts. Your long gangly limbs distract you from making objective judgements.

Thanks for sharing my pain, mate. I suppose I'm just an old romantic at heart.
Hugs.

Oops, sorry Alex...seems they do know each other a bit!

Maybe I have been a bit hasty is reaching a conclusion

Who knows what's going on??

My impression of Richie is that he's a sound guy. I have never met anyone who posts on here in "real life" so I have to judge everyone by the persona they display on here.

Richie has been around for a long while, and I suppose people who know him, either personally, or through the net; will have a tendency to side with him in disagreements like the one described in this thread.

I get the impression that the RBSD world is rife with infigthing and politics, and it seems to me that Richie has been getting a fair amount of flack in some circles. It all seems very much like "My sensei is better than your sensei."

I have no dealing with anyone in the RBSD world, and no friends, so I have no bias. As I say, Richie comes across as a nice guy. He puts up lots of info for free, and I feel, has an intelligent approach.

Who knows? Maybe some instructors in certain circles see him as a threat?

Bloody Nuisance wrote:My impression of Richie is that he's a sound guy. I have never met anyone who posts on here in "real life" so I have to judge everyone by the persona they display on here.

Richie has been around for a long while, and I suppose people who know him, either personally, or through the net; will have a tendency to side with him in disagreements like the one described in this thread.

I get the impression that the RBSD world is rife with infigthing and politics, and it seems to me that Richie has been getting a fair amount of flack in some circles. It all seems very much like "My sensei is better than your sensei."

I have no dealing with anyone in the RBSD world, and no friends, so I have no bias. As I say, Richie comes across as a nice guy. He puts up lots of info for free, and I feel, has an intelligent approach.

Who knows? Maybe some instructors in certain circles see him as a thread?

Is whether you like someone or not relevant to the issue of someone claiming to be something they are not to flog products?

Dave,

It sounds like you are implying that Richie's claiming to be something he is not. If so you should really back that up. If not apologies I must have misread your post.

FWIW I'm under the impression that Richie is quite modest and truthful in the claims he has made about himself - but again if I'm missing something I'd be happy for you to point it out for me.

JDCW wrote:Dave,

It sounds like you are implying that Richie's claiming to be something he is not. If so you should really back that up. If not apologies I must have misread your post.

FWIW I'm under the impression that Richie is quite modest and truthful in the claims he has made about himself - but again if I'm missing something I'd be happy for you to point it out for me.

It is not for me to prove anything. It's for him to prove.

To be honest, I would have to agree with JDCW. I have never gotton the impression that Richie is a bullshitter. I can't vouch for the claims that anyone makes on here, as I don't know anyone personally.But applying common sense, and observing behaviours over a period of time, I think it's possible to get a sense of who is a bullshitter, and who isn't.

Richie seems to e an honest guy, I have never come across anything that has made me think "hmmm, that sounds like bull." He also doesn't claim a gazillion street fights. One of the few RBSD instructors that doesn't.

I don't want to sound like a jock rider here. This argument means nothing to me personally, this is just my opinion based on what I have observed.

Relating to this specific thread, Richie's arch nemesis over on that other forum, seems to have been caught in a lie in regard to his past with Richie.

Also, remember the thread (which I believe has already been referenced) where our mystery man asked "what dvd shall we do next?" And then decided he would do a "sneaky ground fighting" dvd. Well, we've all seen that MMA fight of his haven't we? We've all seen his complete lack of ground skills haven't we? And yet he was proposing to bring out a dvd to teach this very subject.

In this very specific case, I know who I would be going with if I had to take sides. THis point of view is based on the behaviours of the parties involved, and not on personnal feelings.

Bloody Nuisance wrote:To be honest, I would have to agree with JDCW. I have never gotton the impression that Richie is a bullshitter. I can't vouch for the claims that anyone makes on here, as I don't know anyone personally.But applying common sense, and observing behaviours over a period of time, I think it's possible to get a sense of who is a bullshitter, and who isn't.

Richie seems to e an honest guy, I have never come across anything that has made me think "hmmm, that sounds like bull." He also doesn't claim a gazillion street fights. One of the few RBSD instructors that doesn't.

I don't want to sound like a jock rider here. This argument means nothing to me personally, this is just my opinion based on what I have observed.

Relating to this specific thread, Richie's arch nemesis over on that other forum, seems to have been caught in a lie in regard to his past with Richie.

Also, remember the thread (which I believe has already been referenced) where our mystery man asked "what dvd shall we do next?" And then decided he would do a "sneaky ground fighting" dvd. Well, we've all seen that MMA fight of his haven't we? We've all seen his complete lack of ground skills haven't we? And yet he was proposing to bring out a dvd to teach this very subject.

In this very specific case, I know who I would be going with if I had to take sides. THis point of view is based on the behaviours of the parties involved, and not on personnal feelings.

Well, you are perfectly entitled to side with who you like in the absence of any hard information either way - that's human nature. I don't know the other guy at all - but then again nor do I know RG or have any dealings with him. My take on the issue between RG and 'Chris Turnbull' is - I don't know. Seems 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
Richard Grannon makes his living by portraying himself as an expert in 'Real Self Defence'. Various others on these forums have been utterly derided for not being what they claim. There is no general doubt about the veracity of people like Dave Turton, Mick Coup, Nick Hughes, etc. However, no matter how affable and plausible some individuals maybe it is only right that they - like the aforementioned - can back up their claims to expertise and experience, especially if they take money from other people for it and their customers safety depends on it. My reading of Brian's attitude is that he is particularly keen to weed out the fakers.

Well, I've posted some questions on another thread which will clear up the matter once and for all. I, like a number of people, have probably been naive in taking people on face value in the Martial Arts game and recent experience has opened my eyes to the fact that you do really need to check if people are what they claim to be.

DaveCollins wrote:

JDCW wrote:Dave,

It sounds like you are implying that Richie's claiming to be something he is not. If so you should really back that up. If not apologies I must have misread your post.

FWIW I'm under the impression that Richie is quite modest and truthful in the claims he has made about himself - but again if I'm missing something I'd be happy for you to point it out for me.

It is not for me to prove anything. It's for him to prove.

I never said it was up to you to prove anything. However personally I'd like to think that if I was going to make an accusations I'd come straight out with it. However it appears that you've done that now so it is a moot point.

JDCW wrote:

DaveCollins wrote:

JDCW wrote:Dave,

It sounds like you are implying that Richie's claiming to be something he is not. If so you should really back that up. If not apologies I must have misread your post.

FWIW I'm under the impression that Richie is quite modest and truthful in the claims he has made about himself - but again if I'm missing something I'd be happy for you to point it out for me.

It is not for me to prove anything. It's for him to prove.

I never said it was up to you to prove anything. However personally I'd like to think that if I was going to make an accusations I'd come straight out with it. However it appears that you've done that now so it is a moot point.

I have not made any accusations actually. I have merely asked for verification of claims made - two different things.

DaveCollins wrote:
Is whether you like someone or not relevant to the issue of someone claiming to be something they are not to flog products?

Sorry but this sounds like a veiled accusation to me.

JDCW wrote:

DaveCollins wrote:
Is whether you like someone or not relevant to the issue of someone claiming to be something they are not to flog products?

Sorry but this sounds like a veiled accusation to me.

So what? If all is as claimed then there's no problem is there?

I agree with not taking things at face value. Until very recently that's all I ever did. But now I have realised that it's important to be ver y discerning.

In this case not so much, as I am not losing anything either way. I'm not a client of any of the people we are discussion in this thread, so real deal or not, I'm not losing anything practical.

But you are right that there is a lot of bullshit. From having contact with various name, and not so name, instructors on this site I have realised that a few name instructors out there are complete wombats as people.

That's not a dig at any of the Q/A guys by the way, I'm referring more to people who have "dropped in" in the past.

It's vital for us, John Q Public, to view any claims made with a certain skepticism until they can be verified.

Dave,

Just saw your latest post on the other thread. I am not saying that Richie, or anyone else, shouldn't be qustioned.

kaarl, for example, was questioned as to his qaulifications to instruct. I think that the hoo ha around him centered on the fact that he was unable to provide answers satisfactory to his questioners.

But, everyone who is making claims should be prepared and able to back them. I'm not arguing against this point at all.

So was an accusation or not? I'm confused.

No problem at all with you asking for verification or even making accusations, I've got no particular axe to grind with regards to Richard's experience, competence or lack thereof. I was only saying I thought you should come out and say it, which you now have.

I find his claims pretty believable to be honest and would have hoped he would have had the imagination to invent something a bit more spectacular if he was going to lie.

There's quite a lot more detailed information now on that link I gave before, on the OUTCOLDFIGHTCLUB forum. Definitely bad blood between them and both are as convincing as each other in my eyes. This thread was originally aimed at Dave, however, I think he may not bother to answer now...I don't blame him.

Alex

Bloody Nuisance wrote:I agree with not taking things at face value. Until very recently that's all I ever did. But now I have realised that it's important to be ver y discerning.

In this case not so much, as I am not losing anything either way. I'm not a client of any of the people we are discussion in this thread, so real deal or not, I'm not losing anything practical.

But you are right that there is a lot of bullshit. From having contact with various name, and not so name, instructors on this site I have realised that a few name instructors out there are complete wombats as people.

That's not a dig at any of the Q/A guys by the way, I'm referring more to people who have "dropped in" in the past.

It's vital for us, John Q Public, to view any claims made with a certain skepticism until they can be verified.

I certainly have taken people at face value and have now realised what a mistake that was. Having thought about it I see in myself it is down to the fact that whatever I've done previously, either sport-wise or professionally, effectively filtered out the bullshitters, fakes and wannabes from the start. So you never actually see any because they are either totally exposed early on or you have to be qualified by a long-established professional body to get to be involved in the first place.

Taking sport for example, you quickly find out in something like rugby if an individual is just talking a big game and doesn't have the required physical and mental hardness - or the practical skills - because there's a real game every Saturday for 8 months of the year. If it's a combat sport then you can see how they go in a real bout/tournament.

When it comes to RBSD when are you ever really going to see the reality of a person's ability? All we really have is their claims and what facts they can provide to prove those claims are true.

I have to confess I never realised what a sort of 'wild west' the martial arts 'industry' is. So I think when someone holds themselves out commercially as an instructor we as customers have no choice but to be sceptical and make them back up their claims. If they can then great, if they can't - or won't - then that's their problem.