Speed v Strength

]Another archive question, this time from Dave McC
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Speed Vs Strength

by DaveMc
Interesting to read top ten dave - gonna put dem in order now? - only kidden

Have you had any experiance of wing chun and whats your opinion on it? Clearly Bruce Lee made it work extremely effectively but then he was an anomaly.

whats your opnion on speed against strength and their impact on power and advantages in a fight? ive heard people say that the more weights you lift the more your speed will decrease and since speed in important for defence as well as attack would it be better to lift less weights. this question came into my head rencently after my gym membership ran out and im trying to decide if id b better renewing it or simply doing more bodyweight excercises like situps and push etc.

also as i final thought ive heard people say the only way to learn how to fight is through experiance - can't swim without getting in water - but you can't jump in at the deep end or u will most likely have an experiance that will put you off for good, therefore in your opinion is there any shallow end? I was thinking if you had a like minded partner and had a few pints - not wasted - the alcohol would act as a partial anaesthetic and give you an extra boost of confidence. of course you might get carried away and end up in a bad way but whats you opinions anyway.

sorry for writing so much but got lotsa questions lol you just about a small portion of them but think id better stop or u might just not answer them


by Dave Turton

Right.

1. Weights used correctly (key word) can and do make you both more powerful and faster.
Strength and power are two different aspects.
In a study on speed of performance in the 1976 Olympics, the FASTEST movies performed by any competitors in any sports were the lightweight weightlifters doing the two handed snatch.
Others that scored high were javelin and discus.
Some BODYBUILDING moves are slow, as are powerlifting moves, but some like the power clean etc are very fast and develop explosive power.
So if you do decide to go back to the gym remember if you want to a fighting martial artists and not a competitive bodybuilder, dont train like a bodybuilder.
As an analogy, would you pick a soccer coach to coach a rugby team simply because both sports involve teams, goalposts, balls and fields..
Although I have a lot of faith and liking for the bodyweight and partner exercises for the martial arts as well.

2. Fair point..

Simply increase the intensity of your training..pressure test everything you do with varying types and degrees of pressure.

If Geoff had one minor problem with his training 7 or so years ago, it was the coverage he got on his 'animal day' sessions.
So much mistaken reactions came about because of it.. I think the title got most people.
Everybody was thinking it was just some guys beaten seven bells out of each other with blood and snot all over the place.
It was (and stil is) a viable training aid, done sensibly and wisely in various ways and with various levels of pressure.

That should aid you greatly, get out of the comfort zone and put your abilities, skills etc under some pressure to see how they hold up.

Thanks for the questions mate

Dave,

Playful challenge- provide the reference for the alleged 1976 Olympic study.

I say that it doesn't exist. It doesn't even make sense on the face of it that someone doing a two handed snatch would move faster than someone with nothing in their hands.

I'll dig it out mate .. but it was measuring MUSCLE Twitch speed not just MPH.. but its true

But I will try and dig it out for you to read yourself..

I Have just re-read my original post and realised from the answers that I made a hash out of explaning it

it wasnt the LIFTING That was faster etc, but the LIFTERS

tests were done on many athletes from many disciplines and it was the lighter weight weightlifters USING THE SAME tests as other athletes who scored highest in speed, reflexes etc

things like the shuttle run, sargeant test, reflex testing etc etc

sorry if it read differently

I will STILL try and dig out the research material though

Already looking iffy Dave. It was originally lightweights performing the two handed snatch (does anyone remember the one hand version!!)
and now it is comparing the lightweights against other athletes in shuttle runs etc.

BTW Dave don't give me the Fred Hatfield version of the same thing which allegedly took place at the 1964 (sic) Mexico Olympics!

Taken from http://tkdtutor.com/06Theory/Power/PowerPhysics.htm

...the equation for force involves more than just mass and acceleration. The full equation is F=ma+cv+kx. This longer equation takes other variables into consideration, such as wind resistance, gravity, friction within joints, muscle tension, and energy lost through heat. This longer equation for force contains 6 parts: (mass x acceleration) + (velocity x displacement) + (damping x stiffness)

Dunno how correct it is.

Dave,

Far be it for me to kick a man when he is down but I have not seen even a hint that you are close to tracking down that non existent.. er I mean difficult to find.. study.

What was the bet now? A full set of your latest DVD's? No? OK I'll settle for the signed photo!

still searching mate ,, it ISNT non-existent.. I take a tiny bit of exception to that comment.. not enough to shout for my mam and have a sulk.. but it does exist.... although I was using memory for the details rather than quoting directly..

No, just have patience.. anyone who has seen my loft with well over 4,000 mags, several hundred books etc, and clip files full of cuttings, with not much of a system, will know finding ANYTHING from me is a task worthy of one of Hercules's 12 tasks.
I am a bloody magpie I store anything that has interested me.. I havent put anything onto disc or PC as when I ammassed my collection I onlyhad a manual typewriter.. so no databases etc.. just mags in chronological order..

You dont have much ambition anyway .. a signed photo of ME.. is your dartboard in need of recovering???

Semi Seriously though .. it does exist and I do have it in the attic.. other than hire some explorers I cant say when I can find the time to sift through the LOT.. but as and when I turn it up, you will be the first to see it


been a good debate though hasnt it

cheers buddy you have made me smile which is well worth the posts

I can't find the study, I've heard of it though.

Here's a quote from Dan John:

Every four years, the world brings it attention to the Summer Olympics. And, every four years, an announcer states, while trying to comment on the Olympic Lifts, that “the snatch is the fastest movement in sports.” True. A few minutes later, in all the coverage that weight lifting will receive, a massive weight will be cleaned, the lifter will rise, jerk it overhead and be declared “the world’s strongest man.” Again, true. Then, our announcers will return us to yet another five hours of full coverage of the women’s gymnastics warm ups.

It's true that o-lifts develop phenomenal explosive power.
I've seen a heavyweight (more than 300 lbs) o-lifter jump from standing onto a table that was sternum height. That's a lot of explosive force.

JK

You may have heard of it and you may find a reference to it but you won't find the actual study because it doesn't exist -except in Dave's loft.
Drechsler refers to it but doesn't provide a reference for it as does Hatfield.

I have no idea of the context of Dan John's quote but how on earth a movement with a heavy weight is supposed to be faster than an unweighted movement I cannot fathom.

I spent an enjoyable 2 years Olympic lifting in the 70's with Ernie Peppiat former national coach- whom Dave might remember -at Kentish Town but I do not hold at all with the commonly held view that olympic lifts uniquely develop a generalised form of explosive power.

Of course to be successful a top lifter would genetically need to be explosive but I have not found that Olympic lifting significantly enhances that quality when looking at transfer to other activities- wrestling being the sport with which I am most familiar.

Dave- my patience will last until Christmas. You're right about the lack of ambition- how about the complete album then?

Hey Peter, I see you're willing to take DVD's for there *not* being a study.
What are you offering for proof of the study itself?
Guiness, mate, will find documentation for Guiness...

JK

JK, for you my friend a meal at my expense when you next visit London.

For Mr T a visit to Rotheram to pay for the DVD's- and collect the autographed photo.

JK-don't tell Dave as he turns his loft upside down but it's an urban myth. You can't even imagine that given the preoccupation of the athletes at the Olympics that there could have been such a study.

peter m
what wrestling club do you train ?
i wrestle at wrexham.

mime

Hi Peterm.. I accept scepticism in any form as you only have my memory word that it exists in my loft.. but in my defence (if I need such a thing) if I have READ that such a study exists, and read the report in the corresponding magazine, take it as genuine and quote it as accepted, then some of the onus is on the authors of the article not just me..

however as to the question regarding weighted limbs versus 'empty' ones.. I can remember something on the lines that it is possible to measure the speed, power and force in relation to each movement and quantify that the weighted ones actually produce faster muscular contractions, which would mean they are moving faster to produce any movement in the weight.. when NO resistance is applied the contractional stresses in muscle fibres dont NEED to be as fast, the 'no resistance' effect negates the need for it....

removing the influence of weight showed that the actual muscle fibres individually had to contract faster.. so when the test were done the muscles became capable of faster contraction in the weight lifters than in the track athletes

I will make an effort each sunday am to dig out this report and book a table at the local Italian restaurant... or sign a set of my DVD's... game on!

Yes Mike I know.

I run the Tokei in London.

Dave,

You may pray the errors of others in mitigation only and not in your defence.Remember the deal is the actual study or its reference not reference to an alleged study.

As regards your second and third paragraphs, it seems that you are not saying that speed of movement is faster but that speed of contraction of the muscle fibres is higher in a weighted movement?

This then meant -in presumably the original study- that weight lifters could run faster than sprinters or was it simply that their muscle contraction velocities were different? The former is difficult to believe and I cannot imagine that research methods were available to test and compare muscle contraction speeds in isolation as opposed to measuring speed of movement.

Until I dig out the actual article I am writing from memory only..

But the did reaction tests with lights.
the sargeant test
shuttle runs
some electronic test .. cant remember what
and some others

the only bit that genuinely sticks in my memory is that the weightlifters (admittedly the lighter weights) did the best... I remember being smug about it

Source of unbiased information:

British Amateur Weight Lifter's Association (as it then was of course)

Dave- you didn't respond but did you come across Ernie Peppiat by any chance? He was a great OL coach.

sorry ..Only once mate .. I was with SAWL (society of amateur weightlifters) Ernie was a great lifter.. I was well acquainted with a few lifters of the same era..
I was also involved with ISSA the strand pullers as well..

My fave lifter was Louis Martin.. what a super physique as well

Keep it coming

Just in case some of you think that there is some mean spirited sniping going on in this exchange I can honestly say that should Dave find that non existent study in his attic I will throw all of my toys out of the pram with great dignity. I do of course expect a Private Eye style grovelling apology just before Christmas.

looks like a fun Xmas then

Actually, Peter, you manage to avoid putting the "mean spirited" into the sniping

Getting this thread a bit back on track, you mentioned that you did 2 years of O-lifting under a good coach. Do you feel that you didn't generalize the power generation you learned to develop in the O-lifts into your other athleticism?

For me, I find that my limited work in O-lifting has increased my ability to generate power from my hips tremendously, and I saw/felt it (as did my training partners) in my takedowns and shoots.
Then again, that's me, and I learn in weird ways. My bullwhip work did more to improve my right cross than any boxing sessions I ever did.

But as for the o-lifts - did you find otherwise?

JK,

Yes I trained under an outstanding British National Coach. I have to say however that I saw little carry over to my wrestling.

My experience in observing and coaching wrestling over many years is that there is little reason to believe that any significant transfer occurs.
I have not noticed that experienced wrestlers who perform the Olympic lifts are any more explosive than wrestlers carrying out standard weight training.

I refer to experienced wrestlers as they would be unlikely to make gains from technical improvements which might confuse the effect.

You may have improved technically. Your stronger legs may have made you more explosive. You may have been stronger all over through lifting weights you may have felt more explosive without actually being so but if you feel that it worked for you then I am all for being pragmatic and say by all means continue with what you found successful.

If I can jump in before Petem... I did the Olympic lifts when there were three of them Press, Snatch and C&J..

loved Snatch and C&J .. hated press with a vengence.

I did split style on the snatch and clean for 2 years before I tried squat, and added 50lb to my total in one session.

best figures.. PLEASE dont mock I know they were garbage
Press 150lbs
Snatch 185
C&J 205
all at 160 bodyweight.. NEVER made bodyweight press which was the aim then

I was wrestling and doing Ju-Jutsu when I was O lifting.. certainly felt it helped me in many ways
but then again I am 5ft 6-7ins with short powerful legs.. I have never trained calves at all and they are 17.5 inches..

so I guess I enjoyed about 3-4 years altogether


anyone remember Jumping Jim Hallidays course.. I was on it for 6 months.. he called it the Olympic Bodybuilding scheme.. a bit like combining powerlifts and Olyimpic lifts
You did Squat, Bench, Deadlifts, then Press Snatch and C&J and finished with curls..

7 exercises, 3 sets of 1x10, 1x6, and 1x3 of each one..

seemed oK at the time

Dave, I can remember the name Halliday but I can’t remember his course.

In talking about Olympic weightlifting I was of course talking about training the complete lifts into full squat or as Dave mentioned the split versions. I wasn’t particularly talking about the so called power versions i.e. power clean and power snatch. If anyone is interested we can continue on with a refinement of that.

Talking about pressing a friend of mine often reminds me that his record will never be beaten because he holds the junior GB press record which of course no longer exists as a lift and therefore he shall remain in the record books for ever more.

It is bewildering why some people can press well. My friend says that he just seemed to have the ability –shall we say skill?-to press and in all honesty in lifting weights there is often no clear relationship between weight lifted and display of strength in other areas.

We often talk glibly about lifting weights to increase strength as if this was some portable commodity that expresses itself in all activities and that somehow by lifting weights we will make ourselves qualitatively different from those who don’t, neglecting that it has a strong skill component.

Hence my friend was not particularly “strong” as a wrestler. I have known people who have been able to bench press over x2 bodyweight and still have not been that strong on the mat and conversely people who have barely bench pressed their own weight who have been absolute murder although admittedly they were not very serious weight trainers.

It may be heresy to say it but the most significant thing you can do to be stronger on the mat is to get bigger not lift more. Of course being bigger may mean that you can lift more weight but if you are practised in exerting your existing muscle mass specifically on the mat, the ability to lift more weight alone due to neural factors will not make you significantly stronger mat wise imo.