Goshin kai and Abbe Sensei

As a member of the BJC I was interested in this article I came across on a system called Goshinkwai (Goshin Kai) It makes reference to Abbe Sensei and as he was a co founder of the BJC I would appreciate more information.






Gordon and John were encouraged to develop their own system of un-armed combat. Master Abbe asked them to demonstrate their style while he was performing at a course in South Wales. Following the exhibition he awarded them their Shodan (1st Dan) grades.
When it came time to name their art, Master Abbe helped them choose the name Goshinkwai.
Master Abbe gave the brothers the single entitlement to teach self defense under the name Goshinkwai, a great honour.

q dave ;)

techman wrote:As a member of the BJC I was interested in this article I came across on a system called Goshinkwai (Goshin Kai) It makes reference to Abbe Sensei and as he was a co founder of the BJC I would appreciate more information.






Gordon and John were encouraged to develop their own system of un-armed combat. Master Abbe asked them to demonstrate their style while he was performing at a course in South Wales. Following the exhibition he awarded them their Shodan (1st Dan) grades.
When it came time to name their art, Master Abbe helped them choose the name Goshinkwai.
Master Abbe gave the brothers the single entitlement to teach self defense under the name Goshinkwai, a great honour.

Here is a web site which will give you a little info http://www.totalbodydefence.com/about-goshinkwai/

Im interested in Goshinkwai also, its held in high regard by many and I wonder what it was that made it "different" from trad Jujitsu (yes realise its a Yawara sp? but you know what I mean). I tried Jujitsu in the past some years ago and found it next to useless TBH (although I realise individual schools can differ greatly)

What is it about Goshinkwai that makes it effective?

Jake331 wrote:Im interested in Goshinkwai also, its held in high regard by many and I wonder what it was that made it "different" from trad Jujitsu (yes realise its a Yawara sp? but you know what I mean). I tried Jujitsu in the past some years ago and found it next to useless TBH (although I realise individual schools can differ greatly)

What is it about Goshinkwai that makes it effective?

Foundation of the Goshinkwai Ryu by Chief Instructor Alun Williams

■Goshinkwai (Total Body Defence / By way of body Defence)
■Yawara (Ancient form of combat)
■Ryu (Family)
■Renmei (Organisation)

Rob. Brown, Thanks for the link to the web site with info about Abbe. I will be seeing Robin O'tani shortly and will see if he remembers his father talking about this.But as Robin is 65 he may have little knowledge on this fascinating topic.

Rob.Brown wrote:

Jake331 wrote:Im interested in Goshinkwai also, its held in high regard by many and I wonder what it was that made it "different" from trad Jujitsu (yes realise its a Yawara sp? but you know what I mean). I tried Jujitsu in the past some years ago and found it next to useless TBH (although I realise individual schools can differ greatly)

What is it about Goshinkwai that makes it effective?

Foundation of the Goshinkwai Ryu by Chief Instructor Alun Williams

■Goshinkwai (Total Body Defence / By way of body Defence)
■Yawara (Ancient form of combat)
■Ryu (Family)
■Renmei (Organisation)

Hi, thanks for reply. I understand the background to Goshinkwai (I think) but what I am really asking is what sets it apart from "mainstream" Jujitsu? is it the actual techniques, the methods of training, the instructors? Goshinkwai has a great rep amongst those who know whats works and what does not, why is that I wonder? Dave Turton has stated previously that Jujitsu (in general) is not great for self defense/protection, but speaks highly of Goshinkwai and even based his own system on it - so what is the difference?

have you watched the tbd videos? view them, view some trad jj, bob's your uncle. the vids are on their site.

scuddy wrote:have you watched the tbd videos? view them, view some trad jj, bob's your uncle. the vids are on their site.

Yes watched the vids thanks, but pretty hard to judge something just by some demo videos, traditional jujitsu can look pretty lethal in demos too. So what is it that makes Goshinkwai so effective then in your opinion? Im not knocking the Goshinkwai system at all, just trying to understand the reasons for it being so highly rated.

I was a member of John & Gordon Warfields Goshinkwai of Wales, then the Goshinkwai Yawara-Ryu for just about 20 years making 4th Dan in that and 5th Dan in my own interpretation known as Goshinkwai Combat.. I was graded by John from 1st to 5th.

there are quite a few differences between Ju-Jutsu and Goshinkwai which are apparant very quickly when you start it.

Alun Williams teaches HIS interpretation of Goshinkwai in his TBD .. but it isnt 100% Goshinkwai, although its very good

I dont know of anyone really left teaching John & Gordons PURE methods.
Maybe Micky Gould , Jeff Keen or Dave 'Cammy' Baker.

I teach Goshinkwai to my 1st Dans and above ONLY, prior to that they learn SDF Modern Street Combat.

the severity of applications, the projections of aggressions (plural), the emphasis on domination, no blocks, no 'application or use of 'tricks' as John Warfield called Ju-Jutsu techniques, the superior advanced Tai Sabaki work, the mental training on 'path working' aggression training , and many other ways of training make Goshinkwai VERY different to Ju-Jutsu

Yes I have used the Goshinkwai as a large base for my own system, BUT I dont teach it in the early grades in the way the Warfields would have.

really its a matter of application.. there are no locks and levers per se, as all joint manipulations are for joint or limb DESTRUCTION not 'tap' .. again its the application

for me it was the most most devastating system I had come across when I first encountered it over 40 years ago, and I had been training for 10 years when I first trained in it. I was blown away by the system totally

It was never nor never could be a 'popular' system.. 100's started and dropped out due to the severity of it all.
Few stayed on long enough to get past 1st Dan... when I recieved my 1st Dan in 1975 there were only 6 or 7 others at black belt level.

I never had more than 20 members training in any of my several clubs from 1975 to today, often as few as half a dozen...

a very hard system, my 4th Dan grading in Abergavenny in 1984 was the hardest physical thing I had ever done... brutal, and not one I would care to repeat.

From 1975 to today I have only produced less than 10 Black Belts in the Goshinkwai
yet dozens in my other arts.

Goshinkwai is a bit 'old school' and not fit for much of the 21st Century society.
it isnt a system of 'self-defence' its a system of personal combat second to nothing else I have done.. John Warfield was amarvel and not at all known by his peers or others.

Gordon died in 1993 and John in 2003, and frankly Goshinkwai should really have died with them as I dont know anyone capable of filling John's shoes...certainly NOT me

I dont know of anyone really left teaching John & Gordons PURE methods.
Maybe Micky Gould , Jeff Keen or Dave 'Cammy' Baker.

I teach Goshinkwai to my 1st Dans and above ONLY, prior to that they learn SDF Modern Street Combat.

the severity of applications, the projections of aggressions (plural), the emphasis on domination, no blocks, no 'application or use of 'tricks' as John Warfield called Ju-Jutsu techniques, the superior advanced Tai Sabaki work, the mental training on 'path working' aggression training , and many other ways of training make Goshinkwai VERY different to Ju-Jutsu

Thanks for reply, I understand the difference a bit better now. Interesting you should mention Mick Gould, one of the reasons I was asking about Goshinkwai is that I may be spending some time down in Wales later this year and was thinking of attending Mick Goulds classes there (I think Jeff Keen is one of the instructors also).

The fact that you rate the system and those guys so highly has helped me to make my mind up, cheers:-)

[quote="Jake331"]

I dont know of anyone really left teaching John & Gordons PURE methods.
Maybe Micky Gould , Jeff Keen or Dave 'Cammy' Baker.

I teach Goshinkwai to my 1st Dans and above ONLY, prior to that they learn SDF Modern Street Combat.

the severity of applications, the projections of aggressions (plural), the emphasis on domination, no blocks, no 'application or use of 'tricks' as John Warfield called Ju-Jutsu techniques, the superior advanced Tai Sabaki work, the mental training on 'path working' aggression training , and many other ways of training make Goshinkwai VERY different to Ju-Jutsu

Dave, can I be a bit cheeky here and ask if you could possibly elaborate on some of the points you mentioned above

In particular what consitutes "superior advanced Tai Sabaki" and what do you mean by " 'path working' aggression training"? have done some searches and understand that Tai Sabaki essentially is footwork or body movement, but cant find much on 'path working' aggression training at all. I know you probably have better things to do but Im sure there are many on the forum who would be interested in your thoughts

no problems mate

Tai Sabaki is NOT footwork, akthough one aspect of Tai sabaki is footwork
Tai can translate to BODY
Sabaki to MANAGEMENT

so body management is the best English translation as such

The way you 'use' your body in motion, postural changes balances etc can massively effect your opponent and yourself and your 'techniques',
its an 'art' in itself... lots of practice on movement, positioning distancing, postural work etc gives you the best angles, bases, postures (not stances .. crap word) in your own combat methods

path working is a kind of mental work via 'suggestion' 'hypnosis' type of thing... very very useful

agression training works on projecting your many aggressions and committing these projections into your oppponents

again its a combination of both the mental and the physical, and is VERY (very) demanding

going 'deeper' is what first attracted me to the Warfields, and what KEPT me with them

sadly many martial artist go wider not deeper.. its the deeper that matters for a more complete understanding of any martial art

it transcends the purely 'physical'

David Turton wrote:no problems mate

Tai Sabaki is NOT footwork, akthough one aspect of Tai sabaki is footwork
Tai can translate to BODY
Sabaki to MANAGEMENT

so body management is the best English translation as such

The way you 'use' your body in motion, postural changes balances etc can massively effect your opponent and yourself and your 'techniques',
its an 'art' in itself... lots of practice on movement, positioning distancing, postural work etc gives you the best angles, bases, postures (not stances .. crap word) in your own combat methods

path working is a kind of mental work via 'suggestion' 'hypnosis' type of thing... very very useful

agression training works on projecting your many aggressions and committing these projections into your oppponents

again its a combination of both the mental and the physical, and is VERY (very) demanding

going 'deeper' is what first attracted me to the Warfields, and what KEPT me with them

sadly many martial artist go wider not deeper.. its the deeper that matters for a more complete understanding of any martial art

it transcends the purely 'physical'

Thankjs again Dave - the Warfields were obviously way ahead of their times doing suggestion/hypnosis type work to build aggression back in the 70's

Abbe used to use many 'tricks' and demonstrations to get his students to both understand and develop their menta abilities.
I could tell you lots of stories about such demos, although I personally never witnessed any of them

David Turton wrote:Abbe used to use many 'tricks' and demonstrations to get his students to both understand and develop their menta abilities.
I could tell you lots of stories about such demos, although I personally never witnessed any of them

Cmon Dave - did you expect us to leave it at that, lets have the stories

Just wondered if the term Goshin from Goshin Kai has anything to do with the judo kata Goshin Jutsu, a kata of self defence moves including strikes, locks and throws?

only in the 'term'
a rough translation of the word is ... "GO" means "SAVE" and "SHIN" can mean "HEART" or "BODY"
so Save the Body is a rough translation and therefore is a 'generic' term meaning 'self-defence'

Goshin-no-Kata is a self-defence kata in the old Judo katas of which there were/are seven (7)

goshinkwai means "School of self-Defence", but not a school BUILDING which would be "KAN", as in Shoto-Kan
the KWAI means School as in the 'SCHOOL' of impressionist art" for example

Goshindo, Goshin-Kempo, etc are just terms including the term Goshin to mean self-defence

Oh and I will post a couple of tales about Abbe's unique methods of 'mind training'

Hi Dave

I've been doing Goshinkwai at the London club run by Alun Williams and like it a lot. It's definitely an art you do 'to' someone rather than 'with' them. It sounds like the Warfield brothers were well ahead of their time in terms of their approach to training, especially ig they were drilling the mental side of fighting as well. I only really became aware of that stuff through Geoff Thompson books.

I hope to hear more about the kind of mental training drills you did.

cheers!

Hi Mate

you wont go far wrong with Alun

Yes they were before their time, but the time wasnt ready for THEM.

you have to either know about or if you are NOT too young, remember the times in the 1970's
the kung fu boom, Bruce Lee etc... GOhsinkwai was so diffeent from those approaches that main-stream martial artists looked upon us as outcasts or at least outlaws.

yes Geoff Thompson DID do alot of work on the mental side, but (and taking NO credit for this) I was one of a handful of people who TAUGHT Geoff for several years.

I do smile sometimes when people talk to me and think Geoff taught ME.. so many people believe that reality stuff only started with Geoff T..

I will stick a couple of storties in when the time s less demanding mate

cheers

Hi Dave, hope you are well.

As stated previously, I trained every week with John Warfield for a period of 10 years up until his sad death. What I teach is exactly what I was taught directly by him. I kept notes of practically every session and have video of footage of him training with me back in 2001, which I shall continue to keep private at his request.

I owe so much of my development and training standard to him and anything I and do to keep his name alive, I will continue to do.

BTW, its getting more popular :-) , By the end of this year I will have produced 20 Dan grades and with 8 clubs in Wales and training groups developing within London, Paris, Stockholm and the US, hopefully Goshinkwai will get the recognition it so rightly deserves.

Take Care
Al

great to hear that Alun

you are doing a great service to John .. who definitely died too young.... what was he about 66? or so.. Gordon too wasn't really 'old'

I too have every letter and training record from the early 1970's .... what a loss mate

For people reading I first met Alun as a teenage green belt... that was a few years back mate eh?

thanks

regards

Dave

Hi All,

I've read this thread with interest and thought I'd contribute.

I originally was a member of the BJC and trained in Judo from the age of eight. I was trained by Dan grades who were students of both sensei Abbe and sensei Otani. We had weekend courses which featured the likes of senseis Bill Woods and Peter Garside.

I moved across to the BJA when I headed south as I couldn't find a local BJC club.

I enjoyed my judo training but for various reasons didn't feel balanced within myself, so I went on a Geoff Thompson course, and also did a few courses organized by Stuart Rider when he was based in Orpington. Dave gave the first course I attended with Karl, who was kind enough to give me some 'personal attention'.

I then heard about Dave 'Cammy' Baker in Cambridge and decided to drive up and take a look.

What I witnessed was incredible. I was used to the principles of kyu shin do within Judo, but here I was witnessing this movement and phenominal control with devastating atemi.

I have trained with sensei Baker since then, apart from a break when I was working in Scotland. I have been fortunate enough to attain a 2nd kyu, but would train still if I were wearing a white belt. The belt matters little to me. The training is everything. I trained last night and I'm counting the bruises today. I hope my fellow students won't mind me saying this, but one left the mat to throw up, and the other had to go outside to take in some fresh air. I was on my chinstrap after just under an hour. When I got home (at 2.30am) I slept for four hours, and I am now awake, physically sore, but mentally refreshed.

I have had the opportunity to train on weekend courses with senseis Gould and Keen. These were not for the faint hearted.

I don't know whether this is exactly the same as senseis John and Gordon Warfields Goshin. I never trained with them. I hope sensei Baker doesn't mind me saying this, but I am acutely aware how he feels about sensei Warfield, so I would imagine that he has remained as faithful as possible.

Whilst I was in Scotland I was attacked by two people in George Street one evening. I intinctively used Goshin to defend myself. That's with decades of Judo experience under my metaphorical belt. It works.

Regards,

Mark aka 'rembrandt'

Hi Mark

great to hear from you
ys I am certain 'Cammy' (Dave Baker) will be doing EXACTLY teh Wrafield way.. Dave was one of my students back in the Heywood days, I think he made either 1st or 2nd Dan under me then moved to Monnington (Ross on Wye) and trained under John Warfield and Jeff Keen etc.

He joined in with Mike Gould after John's sad and early death.. I havent seen much of Dave since John's funeral, just a couple of times or so.

if you want authentic Warfield Goshinkwai mate.. you will get it under Dave Baker

To anyone in London who is interested in seeing this style, come along to one of the monthly sessions that Alun Williams teaches. I think the next one is scheduled for 19 June and will be at the usual venue in Swiss Cottage.

We had a brilliant training seminar yesterday with a good contingent coming down from Wales with Alun as well as a growing bunch of regular faces from London. There was a good buzz in the place with some rigorous training so bringing a couple of spare t-shirts wouldn't be a bad idea. Yesterday we covered some pre-emptive stuff, reacting when you are caught off balance - all with lots of footwork. We also did a couple of throws I remember from judo when I was at school only there were some nasty additions (in a good way.) It was impressive to watch the brown belts get up and demo their stuff at the end. They've got a pretty hair raising level of speed, power, control and body movement.

We had a few gradings as well and it's testament to what Alun is showing us that 3 or 4 of the guys going for the beginner grade are already high grades or instructors in other styles but have come along to statr from scratch.

Big thanks to Alun for another top session and cheers to everyone else who attended. Hopefully a few more people will be curious enough to check out a session.