Dan Inosanto ect

Nick,

You just mentioned Inosanto, do you rate him and JKD guys over there in the states? I mean for real fighting.

Here is my honest opinion of Dan Inosanto...

He is a walking encyclopaedia of knowledge when it comes to martial arts...and, I daresay, has literally forgotten more stuff than most of us on this forum put together. He is in incredible shape and can do the stuff.

On the other side of the coin, I went to a seminar here of his and I ended up leaving at lunch time, stunned that he actually used to be a teacher.

Now, before all of his fans run riot...here's what happened.

He would demonstrate a technique (sticks at the time) and bedazzle us with it. He would do it again slightly slower then he would stand back while we were supposed to practice.

The problem was the technique was far too advanced for me and my mate Ken so we stould there lost. Nobody came around, least of all Dan, to make sure everyone was getting it, and nobody asked prior to, who was advanced and who were beginners.

I asked his assistant for a hand which he - very obviously - begrudgingly gave and then it was on to the next technique.

On the 3rd occasion I asked the assistant for help he actually rolled his eyes and it was everything I could do not to break the fucker's jaw and shove the stick up his arse.

So, while there were some amazing demonstrations there were no explanations and I thought that was poor. He did nothing but stand by himself or chatting to his assistant between each technique. Now, I don't know how that appears to his legion of fans but it's no way I've ever seen a seminar run.

Every seminar I've been to, and all the ones I've taken, we separate raw beginners (or put someone with them depending), and I, and other instructors, circulate amongst our clients to make sure they've got the moves down and are having a good time. The techniques are explained in detail, and explained again, in case the first instruction wasn't clear. It's very much a hand's on experience and in his case it was non-existant
so we left.

I think it's got to a point where he's going through the motions and, I honestly believe based on what I've seen with seminars nowadays, that, if he didn't have the connection with Bruce Lee he'd be out of business or would have learned to be hands on.

From what I read here of Messrs Morris, Coup, Morrisson, Turton et al and their seminars, and what I've seen footage of, they're all hands on as it should be.

If Dan had of been then it truly would have been one of the greats.

Nick

PS: As for his other guys, I don't know them

I've heard the same points raised in other places Nick. You don't seem to be alone in your experience.

As I understand it the quality of the training experience differs greatly dependant upon whether you are with the "in crowd" at these events. I don't believe that this is anything to do with Dan Inosanto, just an example of how legions of followers with a vested interest can feck things up for those who they consider "outsiders".

Chris,

Firtly I've not atended any of Dan's events so can't comment on the standard of training provided.

I take your point and can see how his followers might make it hard for Dan to deliver however ultimately it's his seminar and the quality of training is his responsibility.

Valid point, JDCW. Can't argue with that.

I delberately avoid large numbers at seminars, although very financially rewarding, because the event becomes little more than a demonstration and that isn't what I do.

Having a hundred people in a hall is a superb earner, but a sub-standard learning environment in my opinion - does everyone get attention from that instructor they have paid good money to be taught by? Can everyone even hear what he is saying, a see what he is doing come to that? Or is it just an honour to be in the same room as him, and they should be grateful?

I don't even really demo the material personally that much, as I feel it sets the wrong tone for what I'm trying to achieve. For instance I used to do a power demonstration on my Foundation Elements seminar showing the difference between impulse and impact, proving the latter to be more desirable - unfortunately the impulse strike was so dramatic that it overshadowed the better shot! So these days I only use enough to power to make the point - so no more airborne punters anymore!

I teach material that I have purpose-designed to be spontaneous in application, that I am supposed to be an expert of and unconsciously competant at, so I don't teach from a bunch of notes or simply recite research from other sources - what confidence does that instill in those wanting to learn something 'simple and easy to retain...' I wonder?

Everything is about the student, who cares how good I am? I certainly don't worry about about people leaving the event being impressed, or not, with my prowess - all I concern myself with is are they impressed with themselves? Have I given them something?

I don't pad out courses with extensive warm-ups and physical conditioning - there are gyms for that stuff, I'm certain no-one travels all that way to be shown how to do push-ups and the like.

My seminars don't incorporate endless, almost irrelevant, drills as filler - I welcome questions and debate, telling everyone from the get-go not to believe anything I can't prove, or that they can't prove themselves.

Guess what? I always run out of time....

Mick

I think that's why I consider relatively few of the seminars I have attended as "learning" experiences. There just isn't the favourable instructor to student ratio to make it much more than a demonstration of what the guy out front can do.

That can be all well and good and very entertaining but doesn't really teach anything to the guys handing over the hard earned. (one of the reasons I now don't attend seni. There are some guys there I'd love to train with but the environment has never been suitable in my opinion.)

Not knocking the guys who are at the Seni, the quality of the material coming from guys like Mick, Steve Morris, Dan Henderson you know is going to be top notch material in their respective fields. It's just the training environment that sucks.

I heard one horror story of a famous name coming across to run a seminar in the UK. The gym that hosted was on two levels with a bloody big staircase and breezeblocks dividing them successfully. The attendees were split between the two levels and the "instructing" was done by virtue of a ripple effect. The guys at the front on the top level where the boss man held court carried out the movement (amazingly, these were the same guys who constituted the "in crowd"), this filtered its way through the crowd, down the stairs and into the ground level room. Each participant paid royally to be "taught" by the person immediately in front of them!

I have had positive seminar experiences with larger numbers. Peter Consterdine, Richard Dimitri immediately spring to mind but those experiences are few and far between. The guys I admire are the ones out there in amongst the students, getting round everyone individually and actively teaching the attendess rather than demonstrating their own skills.

I think it's disgusting if an instrutor doesn't circulate during a seminar and make sure everyone has at least the basics of what he/she is teaching down.

I would leave as well under the circumstances that Nick described. There is also no call for rudeness. Especially as, under these circumstances, the student is paying good money for a service. And should recieve that service.

I think this "in crowd" thing is present more or less everywhere to a greater or lesser degree. There are always wierdos that feel their instructor really is "Theirs." It's not always the fault of the instructor though.

Even ordinary classes suffer from this very same phenomenon.

I rememebr one of the Thai classes I went to. The instructor was merely training himself! Sure he would occasionally shout out the odd combination for us to do etc., but then no one was circulating, and many people just stood around chatting.

On one memorable lesson two beautiful blondes walked in. He dropped any pretence of even remembering that we existed, and that was the last we heard from him, as he leered and chit chatted to them.

I never went back. Funny really, as I am blonde myself.......

Brian S wrote: Funny really, as I am blonde myself.......

That explains soo much! Tee hee!

Brian S wrote:Even ordinary classes suffer from this very same phenomenon.

Yes, I agree. I trained at a place for a while were there were perhaps 40 in the class. Often you would have no contact with the instructor. I always felt that unfortunately a students progress was based on his/her ability to observe a technique, practice it and correct it himself/with his partner. In class environment it is bad, in a seminar, it is appaling - a waste of money.

DaveCollins wrote:

Brian S wrote: Funny really, as I am blonde myself.......

That explains soo much! Tee hee!

Big tits as well.

Anyways, I had a similar experience training with a certain very well known (at least here) Combatives instructor about 5 years ago. Once again it was an occasional "do this" or "do that", and then he trained along with the rest of us. Not that he knew how to actually correct anyones technique in any case.

MeeeeAAAAAOOOOw!

Brian S wrote:

DaveCollins wrote:

Brian S wrote: Funny really, as I am blonde myself.......

That explains soo much! Tee hee!

Big tits as well.

Anyways, I had a similar experience training with a certain very well known (at least here) Combatives instructor about 5 years ago. Once again it was an occasional "do this" or "do that", and then he trained along with the rest of us. Not that he knew how to actually correct anyones technique in any case.

MeeeeAAAAAOOOOw!

Go on Brian, tell us who it was?

Oh but I can't.

I would upset his whole Combatives Community, within which only people who never question the Master are allowed to take part in, and whom readily accept each other as "experts" in all kinds of physicial and psychological endeavours that they have little experience of. So much so that they each get to do presentations at seminars, almost as if they know what they're talking about! But they still have to pay..... oh yes!

They may get so upset they'd have to access their state, assuming a killer mindset before close quarter battle. And then, after choppy chopping their way through the enemy, mentally de-anchor each other after their pscychological traumas.

Then it's off to the Chinese Restaurant for more tactical tourist tampon talk and mutual ego stroking!

Heres a quick run through of the Kit List of the next International (the odd Irish bloke and a right pair of Swedes may come after all.....):-

Impact Pads (the ones that sound good when you hit them)
Wooden knives
Combat pants
Clarkes Commando shoes
Plastic gun
Any old shite book about the war
Baldness hiding baseball cap
and the ability to bang out the poorest press ups on the planet.
Brain not required... sixty quid is!

Check Six!

It's Dan Inosanto isn't it!

Lol Bri,love it.

Kev

I gave it a good couple of hours and walked out on Bruce Frantzis.
He said, I think ,in his book that he had ''killed '' his ego, the terror he went through, was his ego dying.
Well that was not the way I saw him, I had to get out of there.


ps. He mentioned something about why he could not show us as much as he would like to.
He said he had been in several car accidents, while he was stationary, stopped at lights etc ( I think it was quite a few, 3-4 ? )
I just wondered if it was the '' wake up call ''some people talk about ?

Brian S wrote:Oh but I can't.

I would upset his whole Combatives Community, within which only people who never question the Master are allowed to take part in, and whom readily accept each other as "experts" in all kinds of physicial and psychological endeavours that they have little experience of. So much so that they each get to do presentations at seminars, almost as if they know what they're talking about! But they still have to pay..... oh yes!

They may get so upset they'd have to access their state, assuming a killer mindset before close quarter battle. And then, after choppy chopping their way through the enemy, mentally de-anchor each other after their pscychological traumas.

Then it's off to the Chinese Restaurant for more tactical tourist tampon talk and mutual ego stroking!

Heres a quick run through of the Kit List of the next International (the odd Irish bloke and a right pair of Swedes may come after all.....):-

Impact Pads (the ones that sound good when you hit them)
Wooden knives
Combat pants
Clarkes Commando shoes
Plastic gun
Any old shite book about the war
Baldness hiding baseball cap
and the ability to bang out the poorest press ups on the planet.
Brain not required... sixty quid is!

Check Six!

Not the same guy who you mentioned somewhere else that reckoned high kicks were no good as he'd only had 40 knockouts on the door with them was it ?

Why, yes it is!

No idea who it is then

Bloody Nuisance wrote:I think this "in crowd" thing is present more or less everywhere to a greater or lesser degree. There are always wierdos that feel their instructor really is "Theirs." It's not always the fault of the instructor though.

Whos in control there? The instructor or a bunch of his littlebusy bodies?

Any instructor with a brain should be aware of the phenomena and go to lengths not to allow it to grow....

But if there actually instructing as opposed to packing them into the rafters for the dough, and keeping his fanboys around to stroke ego, it might not become a problem....


How much did the "instructional" seminar with Dan Insanto cost Nick?

You shouldve been a arse and demanded your money back

Mate,

It was years ago in Atlanta...maybe $125 if memory serves. We already had a hotel paid for so we swanned off, trained by the pool, caught up with an old mate (a black belt from Oz now living in Atlanta) and turned it into a mini vacation...and thrashed the Porsche on the way home

I got one good thing out of it though, so it wasn't a total loss and that was the line about 85% of the world's cultures are blade carrying and using...made me refocus on knife defenses a bit more and get back into FMA.

Nick

Pullup,

I have seen this situation, usually to a minor extent, in most of the clubs I have trained in. In more extreme cases in was because the instructor ran the group as a kind of closed circle anyway, and if your face didn't fit, you would never fit in.

But I think that in every club there are one or two people who view the instructor as theirs and who resent new students, or have an elitist attitude. It isn't always a problem per se. Just annoying.

I do think the atmosphere and attitude in a club stem from the instructor's attitude. Like attracts like as it were. Although I don't think an instructor can be held totally responsible for the attitudes of the people he/she teaches. A class is made up of indiviuals after all.

Of course a teacher in any field should endeavour to treat all the students equally during a lesson.

Bloody Nuisance wrote:Pullup,

I have seen this situation, usually to a minor extent, in most of the clubs I have trained in. In more extreme cases in was because the instructor ran the group as a kind of closed circle anyway, and if your face didn't fit, you would never fit in.

But I think that in every club there are one or two people who view the instructor as theirs and who resent new students, or have an elitist attitude. It isn't always a problem per se. Just annoying.

I do think the atmosphere and attitude in a club stem from the instructor's attitude. Like attracts like as it were. Although I don't think an instructor can be held totally responsible for the attitudes of the people he/she teaches. A class is made up of indiviuals after all.

Of course a teacher in any field should endeavour to treat all the students equally during a lesson.

Totally agree BN its got to be part of the social dynamic of a group.....a "natural" thing to occur.

From school to army to prison ill bet theres group characteristics of which will share remarkable similarities...

The "in" crowd retain there status by bigging up the head man and savagely protecting there own position, just under him, inside the hierachy


Still think a savey instructor needs to be aware of the clusterfu@k of fail which has a tendencys to brew up under them

You are right about the instructor. He/she should not tolerate any elitist behaviour, or cliques developing. New students should be made to feel welcome, at least as long as they demonstrate a positive attitude.

I know I'm repeating myself, but it really comes down to the instructor's personality. Nice guy equals nice atmosphere, and vice versa obviously.