Just slapping drunks

Bouncer 'killed over smoking ban'

The law was introduced to protect people from second-hand smoke
A nightclub bouncer in New York was stabbed to death as he tried to enforce the city's new ban on smoking in bars, police have said.


Authorities say a bouncer was fatally shot in the back outside Nye's Polonaise Room after ejecting a patron.

Police say the man - identified as Zachary Mason Ourada, returned to the bar early Friday and shot the bouncer.

A security staffer is dead and another man is hospitalized with stab wounds following a bar fight in Blaine.

A 28-year-old bouncer was shot and killed at a Manhattan nightclub early yesterday after he argued with three men who did not want to check their coats, the police said.

The bouncer, George Gibson of 106 West 107th Street, was shot twice at 2:10 A.M. as he stood in the doorway of Club Kilimanjaro, on West 19th Street near 11th Avenue, the police said. He died at St. Vincent's Medical Center.

A BOUNCER died yesterday after being punched in the throat during a nightclub brawl.

It is thought the fight began when bouncers ejected at least one man from the club.

The unnamed man, in his 20s, received the fatal blow outside the Liquid Club in Gloucester.

He was taken to hospital but later died.

Last night a security guard in a popular Downtown San Diego nightclub was killed. He was 22 years old and had been with the club for only 6 months. The incident went down like this.

A male patron had gotten up onto a go-go dancing platform. He was bothering a female dancer who was stationed on the platform dancing. The patron was approached by security and asked to get down. He complied and was told he needed to leave the club. He complied. There was no violence. The patron showed no outward signs of being intoxicated or under the influence of narcotics.

The two guards walked behind the patron towards the stairs that led to the front door of the club. As the three climbed the stairs, the patron stayed ahead of the guards. At about the fourth or fifth stair up, the patron, who had his hands at his sides, abruptly turned and with a closed fist, struck the guard closest to him in the face. The guard was on the second stair up from the floor. The guard fell straight back and onto the concrete floor. He suffered a skull fracture and died.

Rivera's second chance - and his life - ended when three bullets ripped through his body.

Rivera was shot as he was leaving his bouncer's job at Club Dream, between Main and Sycamore streets in Over-the-Rhine, at 2:48 a.m. Wednesday.

"He escorted someone out," Rivera's father, Arvel Bailey, said Friday from his Florence home. "Apparently, the guy came back in and they had to escort him back outside."

City of Miami Beach police say a man who worked as a bouncer at club Mansion, 1235 Washington Ave., in South Beach was killed outside of the club, at about 5:15 a.m., while trying to break a fight.

Two other men involved in the fight were also stabbed.

A bouncer was fatally shot and an employee was wounded Saturday after an argument outside a Hollywood club police said.

A pub bouncer was stabbed to death as he tried to stop a customer smoking cannabis.

Issiaka Salawu, 24, was attacked by a group of between six and eight youths, including some girls, it was revealed today.

Recently I've noticed a trend in posts all over the webs to put the fights bouncers have down as of little or no consequence at all we do is slap "drunks" around. So I did a little google just to show that if it's so damned easy, how come people die doing the job.

I also notice the pushover "drunks" punched, stabbed, shot and ganged up on and killed the bouncer(s) in question.

Let me clear up some obvious misconceptions by people who've obviously never stood on a door.

1) There are various stages of drunkedness. Yes, clearly there are people who are comatose in puddles of their own bodily fluids but I run accross one of those a week if I'm lucky. The rest are in states which can involve uninhibited behaviour, impervious to pain and wanting to take on the world.

2) The guy who's drunk tonight who's thrown out isn't drunk when he comes back the following night tooled up, or with ten of his mates who are tooled up seeking retribution.

3) The four scruffy looking guys who don't pass the dress code who I knock back haven't had a single drink yet and they now want to fight me for refusing them entry. How drunk are they?

4) What about the ones who aren't drinking as much as they're snorting or injecting? I've got a picture of handcuffs that were BITTEN off replete with teeth marks in them (sounds like something Steve Morris would do ) and stories abound of guys like that taking multiple gun shot wounds without even flinching.

5) What about the stories of "a team of us" will go and deal with one of them. HA HA HA. There were three of us in Oz (and one of them had to stay with the cash register) who dealt with buck parties of thirty at a time sometimes. What about during the week when sometimes it's just you and or one mate and the local football team turns up for a drink?

I currently work with eight guys who have to cover seven posts i.e. we have seven static and one roving. If something starts it starts with one of us not a bunch. The rest of the crew may turn up eventually but there's been plenty of times I've been fighting a crew (in a bathroom once and outside another time) when the other guys didn't know there was even a fight on.

A lot of people keep saying "oh it takes balls to step in that MMA ring" You know what...I've stepped into a boxing ring twice, the Judo mat I don't know how many times and about 40 karate tournaments...I've always required more nuts to go into the club where I've worked, where colleagues have died on the job, than I have climbing into any of those sporting rings. I'm not buying it...sorry.

Now, are there clubs around where tuxedoed behemoths throttle under age drinkers and hide when the heavies come? Undoubtedly...I've seen my fair share of those clowns. But, for everyone of those I bet I can find a hard core club where the bouncers have to throw down several times a night and get stabbed, cut, glassed and shot at doing it.

If anyone can find me a list of all the MMA guys who've died climbing into the ring...I'm all ears. I'd love to see it. (ps; I googled that too...I couldn't find one )

No, I'm sorry, but my hats off to everyone of them that fronts up to keep order so the honest to goodness nice guys can have a nice night out without some fucktard screwing it up for everyone. They do it for little money, no legal backup, no medical coverage and I've never heard of anyone offering to pay for their clothes that get ripped either.

Nick

Nick,

I agree that slapping drunks is not easy all the best streetfighters I have ever met usually had at least one drink in them for their craziest exploits, I saw most of these guys in action sober too and they were nasty but again most of the time when they fought they had a couple.


My wife's dad talked of being a nasty fighter (his proudest moment was fighting 5 cops to a stand still) and I was unsure until one day, even though he had never lifted a weight in his life at 54 years old and on sure determination he benched 280. Since then I have heard about his exploits from others who knew him and I had to face him down once when he was drunk, I only think I made it because he really likes me. I have no doubt that this man is more dangerous after a couple or more drinks than many people are sober.

In the early years of MMA there was a Russian event called Draga, like Sanda a combination of kickboxing and stand up grappling I think, where an American competitor died. As far as I know that is the only death MMA type events have ever had.

Andrew

Nick, there are those that know , there are those that don't. Those that know don't criticise , those that don't , don't matter.

Most of what I do involves wrestling drunks, sometimes they are a real handful.

Take it easy on them drunks fella.

Also a few drinks make people do things they wouldn't consider being sober like stabbing,glassing or throwing a big rock

Fuck being a bouncer these days. Not only are they getting maimed/shot/killed but also have their hands tied as to how they deal with aggressive punters.

The points Nick outlines in his post are something I can definitely relate to and he is correct. I have never been a bouncer "BUT" in my "street asshole" days I was the guy Nick talked about. The guy who fought with the bouncer or halled off and hit him when he put his hands on me, the guy who came back later when things were calm, the guy who left and came back with a weapon, the guy who remained pissed off long after going home because of denied entry or being escorted out, the guy who made his way back after being at home stewing, to hide in the shadows until closing time. The guy who came back with his boys to fight the bouncers....

I can definitely relate and depending on the neighborhood it could be a seriously dangerous job.

Tommy

Oh....and my apologies to all you bouncers out there:)

Nick,

You missed the guy who goes out with the specific intent of hurting or maiming someone just because he's a nut-job... or settling a score with a punter in your establishment. Not looking for a good time or a laugh he's looking for violence and human nature being what it is he will no doubt be practised and experienced in its effective use.

He's not drunk... he's just mean.

Oh and the dealers who are stone cold sober.. mean and nasty pissed off at you for interrupting their chance to make their money.

Nice people one and all and very comfortable with violence.

Post edited.

I only ever worked two jobs on a door & on the second night the proverbial shit hit the fan & I made an immediate decision, this isnt for me! I hadnt realised how much risk is involved in the job and over here with bikie gang culture the job can become very complicated if you end up in their sights.

The fear that I have felt whilst working the doors (1980-2007) have on occasions been unparalleled.

Does this fear never go away and/or is it managed more effectively with experience?

Two of us are going to look around inside.' He then pulls back his jacket and shows you the metal axe he's carrying. Another guy lets you see the inside of his jacket and you catch sight of a revolver. It's pulling his inside pocket down and you can't help but notice the pistol grip and hammer.

Is there anything you could do when facing a firearm? I look forward to reading the replies from the experienced bouncers!
Interesting thread & post, thanks guys. Ken

I do wonder about what the actual function of door staff is. At the risk of being controversial, it does seem to be along the lines of - "to deal with the negative effects of making money out of people by making them drunk, by throwing the said people out into the public domain for others to deal with once their money has run out."

Is that unfair?

Totally unfair...at least all the jobs I've worked.

The first major gig that was the heavy one with all male clientele was a strip club. The club was unlicensed, the cops were all on the take (in fact half of vice squad owned brothels) and our job was to make sure the guys didn't get out of hand with the girls who, unlike here, were completely nude, and sometimes did simulated sex acts etc.

If the guys tried to grope the topless waitresses we would go and ask them to stop. If they didn't we'd ask them to leave. If they didn't do that we'd physically eject them.

Most of the other clubs I did in Oz were along the lines of...

1. Collect the money at the door
2. Patrol inside to make sure everyone was behaving
3. If you found any problems such as fallen asleep in a pile of their own vomit, groping girls, horseplay that might endanger others (or themselves) you ask them to stop...if they don't you throw them out
4. Solve minor crimes like stolen handbags, jackets etc
5. Break up fights
6. Detain anyone breaking any serious laws such as dealing drugs, attempting to kill someone and so on.

Over here my job description entails

1. Stand on the door and check IDs to make sure the person offering same is of legal age (twenty one here) and that the ID is not fake.

2. Resolve issues such as stolen bags, lost keys, missing phones, guys groping women, guys pestering women, drug use in the bathrooms, clients smuggling their own booze in, people trying to sneak in and not pay the cover charge, drunks asleep, people carrying knives (common here and usually innocent) disputes over whether or not a drink was paid for, keeping people off the stage, making sure the bands equipment isn't touched, bringing in the tables and chairs at the end of the night and manning the VIP entrance to check the guest list.

If we weren't there the police would have to be standing on the door to check the ID's all night long and their back up would be called...oh, probably about 30 times per night. Multiply that 30 times by the 200 plus clubs in town and..well, it couldn't be done. Absolute physical impossibility.

I also have to add our coppers here love us. They stop by several times a night to make sure everything is ok, they hang out there when off duty, and they back us to the hilt becasue they know we play fair. One of them commented the other night (we were standing around waiting for the paramedics to arrive to remove the barbs after one of them had tasered a black guy) that we were his only back up against six thugs the night my mate Sean Clark was killed. All the cops had gone to the scene of the shooting to attempt to locate the gun man and the weapon and he was on his own when he had to confront these guys. We were the only people around to back him and they pulled a bunch of drugs and guns from the car in question.

Oh, the other night we had to call medics because two kids arm wrestled and one kids arm snapped completely in two bits...I left that one out of the aforementioned job description. I'm (we're) first on scene on any accidents such as the above, mickey fin drinks, epileptic fits brought on by strobes, girls dancing bare foot standing on broken glass and twisted ankles from dancing etc.

Nick

Post edited.

Dennis, good question. I'll be back on to give my thoughts later but right now I'm off to list a house for a client and then I'm going white water rafting. Six of my students and I have rented a raft for one of their birthdays.

N

I worked in security for 18 years (1988 to 2006) beofre 'retiring'. At the moment I run a traiing company that provides the pre-licensing training here in Oz, as well as defensive tactics and restraint training.

The supposition that bouncers/doorman don't have serious fights and/or are just 'slapping drunks' is severly flawed. Whilst it is true that this does happen, there are more issues with drugs (now particulalry methamphetamine where I'm based), the mentally ill (usually caused by, or at least exacerbated by, drugs) and gangs.

I've had friends stabbed, glassed and shot at. I've had people try all of the above on myslef but have to date been lucky not to be seriously cut. I have had fractures and dislocations from dealing with 'drunks'. A good doorman/bouncer is a good communicator who is good at spotting trouble and heading it off before it becomes violent - and where it can't prevent it they need to be really good at finishing it.

With the advent of licensing and the associated cctv camera's, Responsible Service of Alcohol legislation etc then the industry has changed. We now get people setting up the security for a fight and having their mates record the aftemath on their mobile phones so they can sue the club etc. Most of the hard men, the pro's have left the industry either voluntarily (becasue of the crap) or involuntarily becaue they have been charged with an assualt - an occupational hazard.

With the economy so good here in Oz and with almost full employment we are having a lot of problems finding decent staff. Who wants all the crap that goes with door work for crap money when you can get a labouring job on a building site for alost double the money? - day work, normal life and no one trying to kill you on a daily basis. This leads to lower quality entrants to the industry that create a whole new range of problems.

Back to the original issue - it's not just slapping drunks. One of the biggest fights I was ever involved in was to rescue a woman being pack raped out the front of a club. Then there was the 100 or so people clapping and cheering. Not one drunk slapped and a very serious fight.

My 2 cents.

I for one certainly don't think that that all bouncers do is slap a few drunks around..... and contrary to what a lot of people apparently think the drunks can be a nightmare too.
I've never been a Bouncer/Doorman but the industry I work in attracts quite a few people throught the door who would come under the Drunk, drugged, rowdy, aggressive, "hard" case and wannabe hardcases description as well as the normal decent people of course.
I worked around Sydney's Kings Cross, which has been known to be a bit rowdy, for 14 or so yrs, often late at night by myself and sometimes all night. Firstly for someone else and for 5 yrs by myself as the owner/ operator of a business.
In that time I had to deal with, argue with, be subjected to insults from threatened by and occasionally to protect myself and my shop get into fisticuffs with the aforementioned "customers".
Can't say I'm much shakes in the fighting dept but I'm a good talker and diplomat when needs be.

I'm well aware that compared to what some of you guys on the door have been through that this is pretty tame stuff, all in a nights work. I think though it gave me just a little bit of an idea though, plus I've friends in the Doorman/ Security industry.( Or were until they realised their hands are tied)

Apart from the fear and adrenaline dump when things looked like they'd gone past the talking stage I'll never forget the nights, especially Saturdays when I'm sat inside my shop and outside I can hear shouting, yelling and screaming, groups of drunken guys going past, the sound of breaking glass. (O.k not every Saturday night but enough)

I'm waiting for potential customers but at the same time it's like acid is slowly knawing my stomach and I'm thinking "What's going to walk through the door next? What a way to make a quid, why am I here?" A kind of dread/anxiety, something like waiting for a rock to fall on your head.

That's probably only a tenth of one percent of what a seasoned doorman has been through so I've nothing but admiration and maybe sympathy for someone who goes through a lot worse than that night after night. I've never been stabbed or threatend with a gun either thank God!!

As Damien mentioned now here in Oz were in the grip of an "Ice" ( crystal methamphetamine) epedemic which only makes things worse and heightens the aggression stakes, plus of course the Okey Dokey (Coke) and a cocktail of other substances all washed down with alcohol plus the ever present mixture of youth and testosterone.

My hat is off to anyone who puts themselves on the front line as a Doorman/Bouncer and deals with this night after night.

double posted by mistake

[quote=

A lot of people keep saying "oh it takes balls to step in that MMA ring" You know what...I've stepped into a boxing ring twice, the Judo mat I don't know how many times and about 40 karate tournaments...I've always required more nuts to go into the club where I've worked, where colleagues have died on the job, than I have climbing into any of those sporting rings. I'm not buying it...sorry.
[/quote]

A much missed point. Yep, everytime I've competed in whatever format, I've been terrified. My adrenaline still spikes just doing things like teaching the FAST courses. BUT, they all pale in comparison to how I felt EVERY NIGHT working the doors. Admittedly, I never felt myself to be a 'natural' doorman, but I never felt myself to be a 'natural' fighter either.

Good post Nick

Dave

As a Cop I can honestly say I have a lot of respect for proffesional Security Personel/Doorman/Bouncers. They deal with all of the same shitheads that we do on a nightly basis, packed into a crowded area, fueled by hormones, alcohol, and Christ knows what else and they are asked to keep people and property safe with little to no equipment. Me I have a whole bat belt full of goodies to deal with problems...if that fails I have a whole car load full of other shit.

That isn't to say that there aren't some bad bouncers out there who don't have a clue about de-escalation or proffesionalism (same is true of Cops) but those who do have it down to an art.

Some of the best training I've recieved anywhere I got from Den Martin and Nick....both expierienced Doormen. That says something to me.

Thought I might bump this one back to the top for Simon Lau to read...

Nick

I don't think Simon posts on here anymore.

Ken said---
I only ever worked two jobs on a door & on the second night the proverbial shit hit the fan & I made an immediate decision, this isnt for me! I hadnt realised how much risk is involved in the job .

There goes an honest man.

I did the doors for a few years,small town, nothing much happened, found myself holding people around the shoulders, saying daft things like ''pack it in'', knew most of them anyway.
Then one night we had a load of motor-cross ''boys'' tried to get in.
I stood my ground and would not let any past me ( they got past the doors and tried to come up the stairs), then the alarm goes off upstairs, meaning there was trouble on the dance floor.
I could not move or all this lot would be up and in the club, one big lad said ''I can help you sort it out '', Yeh im sure you could, I thought.
I only mention this, because the next day I was annoyed with myself for being frightened, I was so green, I really believed doorman did not feel fear.

jethro wrote:Ken said---
I only ever worked two jobs on a door & on the second night the proverbial shit hit the fan & I made an immediate decision, this isnt for me! I hadnt realised how much risk is involved in the job .

There goes an honest man.

Yeh im sure you could, I thought.
I only mention this, because the next day I was annoyed with myself for being frightened, I was so green, I really believed doorman did not feel fear.

Yes, an honest post . I used to think exactly the same way too when I was a bit younger.
Not to rehash old thoughts but that's why the old GT books rang a bell with me..because they told , not only about knocking out guys with right hooks to the jaw but about the fear, anxiety and bowel loosening feeling you get prior to kick off.

I'd say hats off to about 90% of door staff. A good 10% are arses, only doing it to boost their sted'd up ego, pull birds, push people around legitimately, act out their social grudges and generally act the Billy Big Bolox when they so obviously are not.

And yes, I was refused admission somewhere at the weekend!