How long till unconsciousness?

Your wish is my command, sir!

cant fault his comments other than NO martial arts technique involves using the HANDS!!!!

ARMS not hands

What would be the difference with arms then, Dave?
Would they be more effective since stronger?
Or would they be less effective - and therefore take longer - since they are not focusing pressure in so specific an area?

Hi

You can cut off supply to the carotids with light thumb presrure alone, this is how doctors lower blood pressure.

It is hard to see how one could do this on an unwilling victim though.

Every contact leaves a trace, as forensic people say.

There is more to this than the pathologist suggests.

Now they have a suspect maybe he can tell us

tc

steven

Really its just easier to strangle or choke using arms from the rear, or a jacket collar (a la Judo-ka)..

Grips around the throat with the hands are one of the easiest holds to break.. but breaking a nice hadaka jume is very hard indeed

and I'm with Theodore on this one..

I cant see how NO after-marks can be left..

plus this thread (although a very enjoyable one) is getting into MURDER, not taking someone out is self-defence.. a bit different really eh guys?

Hi all

I agree with Dave this thread has gone totally off what i was asking about.

I thought my question had been answered by us in a roundabout way.

The Article on the Pathologist has nothing to do with my Questions it is about why the police had trouble identifying how the Sufolk victims died.

May you could start another thread on that if that's what you want to discuss.

Yes the arms are the best way to strangle I was trying to answer the Q's raised by the article.

This is getting confusing LOL

tc

T

sorry to re-hash this one, but i have a question.

8 months ago, as part of my job, i was sat with a prisoner who said she was going to kill herself if left alone in a cell. lots of people say this, rarely do they do anything. well the cells have a toilet which is out of eyeshot of the cell door. she went to the toilet and was there a while. she then came and sat down on the bench but didnt have her socks on. i thought nothing of it at the time. i then saw she had her back to me and was laid down and wriggling with her hands. i thought nothing of it until i saw a band around her neck. i pulled her onto her back and saw that she had put her socks around her neck, she had made a knot in them while on the toilet and this went over the adams apple part of her throat. her lips were blueing, she had full grip on the socks tightly around her neck. i shouted for assistance and caused her to let go of the socks. she was playing dead, but we got the necessary response from her eyelids fluttering that showed us she was right as reign. put her into the recovery position.

i am sharing this to find out what she was trying to do to herself - choke/strangle. whether she could have killed herself doing this and how long it would have taken.

by the way the prisoners i look after now i take their socks off them and i dont let them have blankets. no one will do this to me again - so i have learned from it.

Dave's right 5-10 sec is about normal, 2.5 I disagree with.

Craig.

www.kapapsheffield.co.uk

Its possible she could have killed herself, but not all that likely, depending totally upon whether when she passed out, (which would happen) she could relax the choke .. During WW2 japanese prisoners of war attempted suicide by holding their breath, using shirts etc, but unless the actually HANGED themsleves, they usually passed out and recovered.

However any pressure on the glotis and epiglotis and trachea could in theory cause enough structural damage to cause death.. but it wouldnt be directly choked it would be due to the damage caused.. this would have been probably a choke... it would have been a comparitively long procees before she died.. maybe 30 seconds or so ..

sounds like you did good work Della

thanks for that info.

Sounds like you want to end this thread, but just briefly, in a book by Sandra Gregory called ''Forget you had a daughter'', she said something about a ( not just one ) prisoner tying somthing around the throut, then putting it behind her, tying her ankles, legs were bent and then straighten legs, untill strangled.
This was in Thailand, but she said the prisons here were worse, especially Durham ?

I know no ones got the time, but surely this is a cry for help ?
Some were in for not paying the tv licence, by the sound of it anyway, just caught up in the system.

unfortunately, they get help but wont help themselves. they go back to the same relationships, they go back to the same lifestyles contrary to the advice and help given. the person that i arrested and did that in the cell was getting intervention from the police 2 or 3 times A DAY. each time we would go, arrest one to prevent a breach of the peace...when they were just having an argument. due to psychological probs they would be seen by the doctor before they left the police station. they would be referred to the mental health team. no sooner did they get home, then we get called out again. if we bound one of them over to keep the peace they would leave custody and go home and argue - effectively a helpless situation. the pair of them set fire to their house to try and kill each other a year or 2 ago and both have serious burns and open wounds still! well the problem is now finished. shes killed him and is now awaiting trial.

there is the intervention out there for people, but they have to be prepared to help themselves too.

or on the other hand, the last person i took to be assessed by the mental health team said they wouldnt admit them cos they arent suffering from mental health issues cos they know why they want to kill themselves!!!

taekwondo wrote:
there is the intervention out there for people, but they have to be prepared to help themselves too.

Oh yes. But they aren't..... and someone is to blame......

So society blames the people paid to do an impossible job.

True Bri, but there will also be plenty of people who cannot help themselves because they are mentally ill.

It is wrong to blame the mental health workers as society does at times, they do a tough, thankless job.

I'm all for genuine cases getting a genuinely good service. But, in this time of budgets, performance and other irrelevancies, the patients needs are often misrepresented in order that the local manager secures his or her performance related pay rise!

And, in my view, we are over run with people who do not fall into the safety net that is the Welfare State because of a genuine need. They leap into it as a life style choice.

And, ironically, it is the genuine cases who suffer, as these very finite resources are spent before those with a genuine need get a look in.

Rant mode off! -

Lotar,

I've demonstrated the sleeper a bunch of times at seminars with someone in the room timing it...2.5 seconds is about normal...granted they may not be out/out but they're beyond responding.

Nick

I hear that Bri and agree.

I have put sleepers on only a couple of people so far, because of my occupation.

The first guy was a big guy and it was probably about 3-4 seconds until I had to drop him as his friend was coming. He was pretty docile at the time but recovered quickly and got up nearly straight away.

On the weekend was another guy who attacked me when asked to leave the venue. He was a small guy and I held it i'd say 5-10 seconds and he was out cold. Luckily he recovered in about 5 seconds and got up.

But I really can't give an exact time because in dangerous situations your perception is altered and things seem to take forever at times.

I got to a level of proficiency from training them, but we never did choke each other out in training.

-Ben