How long till unconsciousness?

Hi

I read recently it takes 3 seconds to choke someone out?

What is your experience of how long it takes.

Also I have heard various theories as to why they go unconscious.

The heart stopping, blood not getting to the brain, again what do you

think?

tc

theodore

Hi

Right 3 seconds seems a bit ambitious for me.. I have never known that

I use the 5-10-15 seconds rule

maximum of 5 in training
10 for the street to ensure unconsciousness
and 15 for the morgue.. they are usually dead by 15

now a CHOKE shuts of oxygen so you suffocate.. this is by pressing on the larynx

a STRANGLE closes the carotid arteries preventing blood supplyto the brain

2 totally different effects

Hi

Yup I know about the choke/strangle distinction it is just most people interchange em or use choke fer both.

The article I read was in wilkepedia?

Where do you stand on what it is when you 'strangle' them that makes em pass out the heart stopping or blood not getting to the brain?

tc

theodore

The blood supply to the brain is shut off, so the Brain shuts down, this is very similar to the Guards on parade who just faint.. if you have ever jumped up quick from a chair and you feel woozy and dizzy this is because gravity is holding the blood away from the brain for a second or two ....


So the brain shuts DOWN first (hopefully temporarily) if the supply is re-established the Brain starts to re-boot, if the supply stays shut off .. you die.. this is because all motor controls to involuntary muscles are stopped, thus the heart stops beating...

so pass out first, brain dying second heart stops last.. well if the heart stops it usually IS bloody last

generally strangles act quicker but are less painful.. chokes hurt more but so much depends on the state of the lungs before they pass out

I have used many strangles in reality, some of my doormen students lots more than me.. 3 seconds is unheard of, but I suppose if certain criteria are reached not IMPOSSIBLE.. but I certainly havent heard of that short a time

Hello,

Do you ever choke/strangle people out fully in training?

I guess I mean strangle but I'm thinking of a rear naked choke or similar. It's certainly said here and elsewhere that its an excellent finisher especially as there is not much obvious sign of damage after recovery, but if it's as quick as ten seconds between the choke beginining to work and death, can't be that safe? can it?

Thanks

it can be pretty safe mate.. 10 seconds is a long (ish) time to hold on to someone who is totally out

for the Dan grading section on Kuatsu (revival methods) we strangle one person out then revive them.. (this is only ever year or so, not regularly

a totally flopped person is pretty obvious, and you really need to keep the strangle on an unconscious person for another 10 seconds.. not easy

Dave...I'm kind of surprised by your numbers mate.

I've never seen anybody survive a sleeper for more than 2.5 seconds (unless they know the trick)..as for death in 15 that's a straight out impossibility.

One, I put one on a guy in Oz one night in a packed club...he was out but it took me a minute or two to get him through the crowd - all the time with the sleeper on. He was out for a while when I got him outside but he revived and walked away.

If memory serves the human brain can survive without oxygen for 3 minutes before enough brain cells are damaged that brain damage is the result.

This from a neurological mag and Lancet...

Q: Doesn't the brain die after 4 to 6 minutes without oxygen?

A: No. Resuscitation after cardiac arrest longer than 4 to 6 minutes at normal body temperature typically results in irreversible brain injury, coma, or death. Therefore there is a popular belief that the brain "dies" after 4 to 6 minutes without oxygen. This is not true.

There are many interventions that can rescue people after longer periods of warm cardiac arrest, although none are yet in wide clinical use. Perhaps the most promising is post-resuscitation hypothermia, or cooling the patient a few degrees after the heart is restarted. Research has shown that resuscitation without brain injury is possible after up to 10 minutes of cardiac arrest (plus another ten minutes of low flow CPR) if cooling is started at the same time as CPR (Critical Care Medicine 19, 379-389 (1991)). The combination of post-resuscitation cooling and a complex drug protocol can further extend recovery without neurological deficit to 16 minutes of warm cardiac arrest in dogs (Critical Care Research, Inc., unpublished). Finally, isolated brains of monkeys and cats have recovered normal electrical function after high pressure reperfusion following 60 minutes of warm circulatory arrest (Science 168, 375-376 (1970)). This result was later extended to long-term recovery of whole cats after one hour of no blood flow to the brain, although with some neurological deficit (J Neurol Sci. 77, 305-320 (1987)).

Clearly the brain does not die after only a few minutes without oxygen. The primary obstacle to resuscitation after a few minutes of cardiac arrest is not cell death, but something called reperfusion injury. This is a cascade of injury that occurs when blood flow is restarted after cardiac arrest, especially inflammation. Inflammation shuts off blood vessels, preventing blood from reaching brain cells. Without oxygen, brain cells die over a period of hours (not minutes). Post resuscitation cooling and drugs extend the 4 to 6 minute window in part by reducing this inflammatory response.
Successful resuscitation after 15 minutes of warm cardiac arrest in humans seems feasible by aggressive use of methods already available. What will the future hold? Amazingly, living neurons can still be cultured from brains after 8 hours of warm cardiac arrest (Lancet 351, 499-500 (1998)). Basic cell structure must persist even longer before inevitable protein breakdown occurs. When repair tools based on nanomedicine become available, we may conservatively estimate that physicians will work on patients after hours of cardiac arrest instead of the minutes they do today.


Nick

Thanks for that detailed (and interesting) reply Nick.. I've never put anyone 'under' in less than 5 seconds...

However, if you re-read my post I stated that the brain is DYING, not 'dead' and one of the first things to go is 'control' of the heart..

Yes the brain CAN survive under certain conditions, but brain death wasnt what I emphasised.. brain DYING.. this causes heart failure IF recovery methods arent introduced..

I said that the HEART stops, now this has been shown to be the primary cause of death when the brain is subjected to blood loss.

It has also (as an aside) been proven that people who were guillotined sometimes opened and closed their mouths as if trying to speak when their heads were no longer attached??? ..

The question was what causes death, and I said the HEART stops when blood supply is prevented from reaching the brain, I also said the brain was DYING not dead.

your comments are correct though mate, and actually in a way agree with some of what I posted.

15 seconds is the average time that an oxygen limited brain takes to stop telling the heart to keep beating, which is why I said it.

I am very interested though in you managing 2.5 seconds.. I have a small theroy here on this that I first thought about 25 years ago..

1, Most of the taller doormen I worked with often managed quicker Strangle KO's than the shorter ones..maybe the 'angle of pull' has something to do with it?.. and Nick mate .. you aint no midget.

2. Most of the ones (including myself) who stuck one on, usually slightly reduced the pressure once 'control' was achieved .. this meant that there was some albeit limited blood supply to the 'victim's' brain.. this would result in staying 'out' but not dying.

3. You are simply better than me at sticking them on.. Ha ha.. probably true

4. Please come back to me again on this one mate.. your comments were interesting, and its always very valid to get as much feedback as you can on anything combat-orientated


cheers

If you slam a rear naked on really hard and fast might it not have the same effect as,say,an axehand to the carotid?

this might cause unconciousness to occur a lot faster?

just a thought..

From personal experience of being knocked out by a strangle while doing judo and actually strangling myself as a 14 year old (please dont ask its fking stupid and kids do stupid things) i can confirm that 5 seconds is about right for a knockout. I am sure some people take longer and some take a matter of seconds as everyone is different. I certainly would not recommend holding on to a strangle for any length of time after an opponent has been knocked out and I definately wouldnt hold on for 10 seconds after putting an opponent out. With this in mind i think daves rules are a good guideline. Coming round from a strangle is very disorientating anyway so once the knock out has been achieved the jobs been done.

Aye, its incredible disorienting. (Been out in training a couple of times.)

I wouldn't know myself but I've heard it said that strangles are way better with aggressive drunks cos they wake up not feeling too aggresive anymore. I'm told, that people who get knocked out with a punch can come round and can still be after a rammy. The same source also reckonned that when the blood is first shut off the brain goes straight into REM sleep, i.e. a sort of dream state, which is why its passifying and disorienting.

Anyone care to comment if any of that rings true (I'm purely an armchair strategist and have been lucky enough, so far, to only get in fights in the gym... )

Hi

We did a fair amount of work on strangles at our Training Camp the other week. Everyone had to put everyone else to sleep.

We showed how the strangle, does not hurt, can be safe if trained properly and the vast majority were out in under 3 secs with very light pressure.

So, Nick your 2.5 seems more than achievable in the situations you describe. Most of the Doormen I have taught, use this method and have had no problems putting people to sleep very very quickly

All the best


Russell

I have choked many people out (this is not a macho statement just the work i have done and circles i used to keep-much to my embarrasment!)and 2.5 - 3 seconds seems quick! I dont usually count when choking someone so cant say for sure but an estimate is 4-6 seconds in my opinon, however Just watch the UFC and see how long some people withstand say a rear naked choke, it all depends on the individual, his awareness, state of mind, stubborness etc!!! therefore i dont think anyone can say that a choke can occur that quickly, same as some people can take a full shot to the chin, adrenalin plays its part as we know!

Also the original post was about chokes, strangles are quicker!

I phoned a mate of mine up regarding this topic and his answer, though very valid made it as clear as mud.

He reckoned on ALWAYS needing 5 seconds for real .. (many years on some very rough doors), but less than 3 seconds in training, usually of course when the person taking it was more relaxed and ready.

he said he wouldnt trust a real strangle on the doors held on less than 5 seconds..
so where are we?

back to square one

lets say, stick it on until he's out and dont bother counting.

Nick Hughes wrote:I've never seen anybody survive a sleeper for more than 2.5 seconds (unless they know the trick)..as for death in 15 that's a straight out impossibility.

Whats the trick - whats the trick??

So my original assertion of 3 seconds was about right.

Maybe the guys who take much longer to do it dont have the hold on right.

I've seen this happen so many times so the 'victim' has blood still going to the brain to keep him awake.

I never asked about death, only unconsciousness.

Yes hitting the corotid will have a KO effect or aid the KO effect.

Just wrap your arm around his neck and he could be struggling for hours.

It is where and how you put it there that KO's him in my experience.

tc


T

Sorry

Im confused.

One person says it takes 15 seconds till the person is 'usually' dead and one says you can last several minutes before you die.

who is right that is a big time difference?

tc

steven

its back to the 'how well is it on' point.

I was once a student nurse (did 3 years) at Birch Hill hospital in Rochdale.
1967-69

I put this question to one of the consultants a professor of medicine..

he stated that if a strangle was on 'properly' most normal adults would be dead within less than 20 seconds.

He was also used in a murder trial I was a witness at where on of my ex-students had strangles a girl to death in less than 25 seconds and possibly less in his opinion.

I suppose its like anything else.. some people can last longer than others, but which one would you want to base your training on?

"Oh its OK some people can last several minutes, so I'll keep it on a bit longer! ... Whoops he's dead!"

Hi

I always thought of strangles as reletively safe and useful in the street
if there is such a disparity in when they die or are made unconscious maybe i was wrong.

thanks for all the comments, clear as mud

T

Unfortunately mate, it aint just strangles...

we tend to 'fight' strangers, so we know nothing about their physical or mental states..

they could have a coronary from simply being pushed a brain death from a slap, a destroyed kindey from excessive drinking etc

I remember many years ago (mid 70's) in a kickboxing comp in Manchester.. Free Trade Hall I think.. Pete Consterdine was the Ref..

one kid kicked another with a 'not-too-hard' groin kick.

The recipient straightened up, fell backwards like a tree toppling.. not crumbling or folding like you would expect from a groin kick.
He was dead before he hit the ground

A fit young trained 19 year old .. dead from a light groin kick..

The autopsy showed a genetic fault..but no-one knew about it.

EVERY time we use violence on another human being, we are gambling

Hi

Yes i know that that is why fighting should be a last resort.

It is just earlier you and the other guy sorry i cant remember his name seemed to suggest the restriction of blood to the brain would cause death but both gave wildly different times for this.

I thought you both meant this on a healthy individual not someone about to die anyway.

tc

T

The point is Theodore.... you don't know the physical, emotional and mental make-up of your opponent.

As a result, there can be vastly different results. What is proven and guaranteed is that following a choke or strangle you will have unconsciousness and then death.

That's the risk you take when you apply chokes and strangles.

I GUARANTEE at no point in an actual fight will you be there counting how many seconds you have held on a choke or strangle. All you will be doing is judging how limp your oppo is. The only question you will ask yourself is, "Is he out?"

Taken from a howstuff works website:

"The brain can survive for up to about six minutes after the heart stops. (WOW im suprised of course they may be difficult to resuscitate after a set period of time) The reason to learn cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is that if CPR is started within six minutes of cardiac arrest, the brain may survive the lack of oxygen. After about six minutes without CPR, however, the brain begins to die. (See How CPR Works to learn more about the procedure.) Prompt resuscitation allows the physician time to assess and treat the damaged brain. Medication and mechanical ventilation permit tissue oxygenation, but severe brain damage or a prolonged period without oxygen or glucose causes the death of the brain.

By definition, "brain death" is "when the entire brain, including the brain stem, has irreversibly lost all function." The legal time of death is "that time when a physician(s) has determined that the brain and the brain stem have irreversibly lost all neurological function."

Chris wrote:The point is Theodore.... you don't know the physical, emotional and mental make-up of your opponent.

As a result, there can be vastly different results. What is proven and guaranteed is that following a choke or strangle you will have unconsciousness and then death.

That's the risk you take when you apply chokes and strangles.

I GUARANTEE at no point in an actual fight will you be there counting how many seconds you have held on a choke or strangle. All you will be doing is judging how limp your oppo is. The only question you will ask yourself is, "Is he out?"

Hi

you missed my point

Ive been there enough times to know I dont count.

Re read the above posts.

I read a medical book last night and it differentiates between the heart stopping and the brain stopping.

You can revive the heart but not the brain.

Therein lies the solution i think.

tc

T

Well then you already have all the answers don't you.

Congratulations.