SD against animal attacks.

Dear Dave Turton,

I have a book on order regarding dog attacks but would it be possible for you to discuss this aspect often overlooked, of self defence?

To be honest, big dogs scare the s*** out of me and I love dogs but ones not on a lead with scary looking owners in the middle of open park land worry me greatly. Are there any devices to use to render dogs immobile using high freq noise?

If a dog came at me, I guess I would use goal spot kick style strikes aimed at lauching them into orbit ( or up the arse of inconsiderate owners letting big dogs like dobbermans wander around in busy public parks near young families) but would like some pointers, please. Would a tactical flash light be of any use?

I guess if I got intoa wreslting match with a dog I would certainly get bitten like fighting someone with a blade and not getting cut. However, should I give them a stronger part of my body part, the lesser of two evils and then work from there? What if there is more than one dog attacking at the same time?

Can you use the build of the dog to work out a stratedgy like with humans? I know dog fighting is wrong but I would love to speak and read about people taking part in underworld dog fighting with humans in chain mail to see the rituals and methods used by dogs to attack to give me a deeper understanding of man's paradoxical friend and foe. Can dogs be outrun?

Many thanks in advance.


Steve

I am smiling here now.. I remember this topic coming on the GT forum and I got quite a few 'animal rights' types condemning what I was posting, including a few not very nice emails.. their content made me chuckle..

ALL extremists are pillocks in my eyes .. regardless of the topics..

I am more than willing to go into this topic provided our EXCELLENT mods dont make me the FIRST SP forumite to get a post banned and closed..

the only bit I will tell you about dog defences is that they are in THREE distinct stages and needs a bit of knowledge as to 'breeds' .. most breeds have some individualistic attack patterns

Dave,

if youd reconsider your stance from the old forums and discuss this i for one are also interested in it. Seem to remember you mentioned a text youd written on the subject that you wouldnt send me - then...

Cheers,

/Narco

Hi Dave.

I remember the posts a while back but could not find them and on the flip side of this, would you be able to tell me and the forum about using domestic animals (like Alsatians and Dobermans) as 'layers' not trained fighting dogs but how to read a average dogs instincts i.e. ears raised etc etc and use them between an aggressor and you? As dogs have better sense perception than humans.

My post was not intended to cause any problems but a topic I've tried to research but found limited sources.

I cannot see the rhetorics that human vs human self defence is wholesome butdefence against a rabid stop-at-nothing wild dog intent on making you his next meal is a taboo...I thought it would be the other way around. They don't have any morals when attacking a human. Were not talking little cute Yorkie terriers and I am a dog lover. But still, they are animals.

I know friends of mine that study theology and they say eating animals is fine (so I certainly think self defence which has the right intention is no problem) they are not salient have no souls.

'Animal rights' - what about a human's right to not get eaten?! hehe

Recently at Coventry Univeristy some animal lib people set loads of bunnies free...only for them to excape into a busy city centre never found wont stay alove i wild because bred in captivity and probably get run over by trafffic etc and hunted by larger animals. These animal lib people won't be so misguided when they are praying for a spaceship to come and 'beam them up, Scotty' when faced with a snarling, salivating Doberman that you cannot talk down or even speak to to get out its fight or fight.
I guess they would not want to hurt old Fluffy so would try and run but I bet all their lobbying to science labs and scientists who are only trying to advance the good of humanity in terms of medicine, has left them unconditioned so they would get bitten. Its a tough old world



Steve

I too would love to know the right approach to dangerous dogs.

I spent the weekend playing with my mate's Stafford pup who is great and fun and cute and his nickname is 'bitey'. This is fine at his age when you can cuddle and play with him. In 18 months time he'll be taking people's fingers and arms off!

Having an idea what to do when out jogging and someone's uncontrolled rottweiller tries to take your knackers off is legitimate self defence, IMHO!

I remember that topic too. I'd love to know more info on it.

I've always loved animals, maybe a bit too much. I always thought dogs were totally harmless, because my experience with them has always been 100% positive, but I heard stories of people getting disfigured. I realised that those 150 pounds+ dogs could be very dangerous if mad.

And yeah, those animal activists scream when we talk about self defense against dogs, but they don't say anything when we talk about eye gouging or ripping balls off humans

Anyway I'm pretty sure that SD vs dogs has a lot of similarities with SD vs humans. You probably have some kind of fence, a way of disarming the situation with posturing or walking away, and a way to end the situation as a last resort if the dog had a bad day and just want to take it on you.

Dave, hope you don't mind if I chime in here.
I used to train dogs, mostly large and aggressive "problem" dogs.

A big part of what works is mindset. The worst thing a dog can do is bite me. I can do much worse to him. I know that, deeply, and I communicate it as part of who I am. So dogs know it, too. The joke among my family when a big dog comes up nicely to me (and the owner looks surprised) is "of course, Dad is The Alpha Dog. I just say that I reek of dog.
Of course the problem is that it's hard to be congruent about confidence when you're scared, and dogs don't fool as easily as humans.
As an aside, I wish I knew it as deeply, and communicated it as congruently to humans as I do with dogs. But I'm working on that.

So Steve, I'd break your task into three smaller questions, easier to work on.

1. Learn more about dog communication. There are lots of books and videos on the topic. One odd but great one is by a Scandanavian woman named Turid Rugaas, and is called "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals". Dogs have clear communications, and just like people they have signals they use to try to calm down a situation. Averting the eyes is one. Yawning is another. When I'm with a nervous dog in a stressful situation, I yawn like nobody's business, and the dog almost invariably calms down.
Bristling and growling is a clear sign of dog aggression, as is ears back. Fear is often a precursor of dog aggression. Give me an aggressive dog over a frightened dog, any day. Much more predictable.

2. Get more comfortable with big dogs. When out in parks, find normal looking folks with big dogs. If you can, talk to them, and to their dogs. Get to know them, get to know different breeds. Some of the most feared dogs are incredible pussycats. Dobermans are horribly, horribly emotionally needy dogs. They can just do a great impression of a fierce dog when called upon to do it.

3. Actual dog violence. As Dave said, this is a bit breed specific, but some principles apply. Be willing to sacrifice an arm in order to take out the dog. If taken to the ground, use the arm to protect your throat. If you can, wrap it with cloth or a jacket. That's how protection dog trainers work dogs - with what they call a "bite sleeve" - a heavy leather sleeve.

A dog's eyes and throat are vulnerable. Legs are less so. With people the idea is that an opponent can't harm you if you:
Take out the driver (the brain);
Take out the engine (breathing);
Take out the wheels (legs);

With a dog, taking out the driver or the engine are most effective. Dogs have 4 legs, so they can go well with only 3, and can keep moving forward with just 2. So taking out the wheels is not your best option.

Taking out the driver or the engine can be accomplished similarly as with humans, and I won't bring on the PETA folks by getting specific. Half-a-brick-jitsu is quite effective.

Getting behind the pointy bits (the mouth and teeth) are key to success. If there's a collar, than you have that for control. If not, there's the scruff of the neck, which has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Picking a dog up (partially or completely) from the ground is disorienting for them, gives them less power, and you more control.

At this point if I had better get back to work.

JK

Thanks for that JK, very useful.

One thing that occurs to me then, is - can you actually knock a dog unconscious in the same way as a human i.e with hard punch to the head?

Just to pre-empt the 'all dogs are lovely and soft' campaigners with a bit of reality...this was in the Sky site tonight! The picture is horrific of the poor little lad's face. It's for reasons like this that I think we need to know how to neutralise this type of threat.

Boy Mauled By Bulldog
Updated: 19:37, Wednesday August 16, 2006

A four-year-old boy needed 200 stitches to his face after he was attacked by an American bulldog while out playing with friends.

George Brown was playing near his home in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, when he was mauled by the dog on Monday night.

The youngster was rushed to Addenbrooke's hospital in Cambridge where he was kept in overnight.

His grandmother Denise Western, 52, said: "About 10 children were playing outside when suddenly the dog ran out of its owner's house and went straight for George.

"It was like something out of a scene from Jaws. It just grabbed him and threw him around like a rag doll.

"A neighbour managed to drag the dog off but it had taken a massive bite out of the side of his face.

"His face was hanging down by his arms. My daughter had to lift his face up so the ambulance crew could hold it together.

She added: "He has looked at himself in the mirror and says he looks like Spiderman. I am just pleased he is alive."

The dog, called Finn, was put down following the attack.

Police had reportedly received complaints about it several weeks ago but could not take any action.

They are now investigating the latest incident and the owner may be liable for prosecution.

Katsumoto, I saw that on the tv yesterday and I've seen victims of dog attacks. I'm looking to get an Alsatian soon as a family pet but IMHO all dogs are unpredictable, esp if they have some mental illness, which many of the public do not think about with regards to animals and these dogs are tracked down and killed. I will keep the dog on a lead esp in public places where people are about. I really really hate it when big dog owners walk their dog not on a lead around the street and in the defence of the dog its placid but you know how unpredictable they are esp when a stranger passes their master and I do get nervous, knowing they could strike me before I would know about it.

I had a Doberman pass me once with an owner, the owner saw me coming walked wide of teh path onto the road and moved teh dog to his other side away from me - so public sense with dogs CAN be done its just morons that don't adhere to societal norms.

Even little Jack Russells can be aggresive _ i was running up Coombe Abbey one day and one came running over, I stopped took up a stance and swore at it for it to run off now if I did ont act like this with it and it could have been a kid, who was smaller than me therefore making the kid's neck and easy target to jump and bite, the outcome could have been worse. I gave the owner a telling off too for letting it run around like that and told the owner it would get a kicking if it harassed me again.

And I'm sure the law would have allowed me to strike in the first instance, a barking aggressive dog steaming at me if it got close I would have kicked it with a spot Smichael would have been proud of up the owner's a***

Steve

Just to let you guys know.. I WILL be answering this topic, but I am hecking all my points again first.. The problem is the actual written material will be quite long and I dont know if there is a facility on this site for sending in ARTICLES???? MODS??

I may end up doing a 3 or 4 'part' thing

If you don't want to do an open public post, Dave, you can send the material to me via email and I can proofread and create a pdf (if my software is working), if you want.

That would be uneditable by readers and we could either swap it via email or post it in an area on the board.

I have PDF software, too if you need a hand. I think that would be a good idea for all salient posts and people can have the info abridged, without the discussion going on - just the empirical and or logical facts in PDF form for reference.


Steve

I too would be verygrateful for any info on this topic, Dave.
Never got behind the reasoning why it was a taboo theme on the GT forum.

I am especially interested in how to communicate to aggressive dogs, i.e. all verbal/body language aspects in order not to have an "animal day", so to speak.

I am looking forward to your articles.

Boris,

instead of Animal Day we could have Pooch Day.


Houwwhhhhhhh!!


Steve

Do I sense a 'spate' of the usual standard of puns coming in.

Its enough to make me 'barking' mad

begging your pardon, but howl you stand all the yapping?

last time you got some weird ticks all rover the place, which caused people to flea. i know this post isn't yelping you through a ruff time, but i didn't want to just sit there wagging my finger or laying down and playing dead. I had a haunch you'd have scents enough to stay... or, at leash, be a good boy.

NyTyme, I will hound you from coast to coast for this...

I either respect you a whole lot more, or a whole lot less, after that doggone tirade.
Especially since you pre-empted most all the good puns!

JK

But to reply to some of the serious issues raised (and I'm trying not to post too much on this, 'cos it gets me really worked up)

1. Dogs are at least as predictable as humans, if not more so. The image of a "good dog turning on his owner or an innocent bystander" is as much a demonstration of lack of awareness on the observer's part as "the guy just came out of nowhere and hit me".
Similarly, how many times do you read about the neighbors of some serial killer say "he seemed like such a normal, nice guy?"

2. There are some unstable dogs. They should be put down. Period.

3. There are way more aggressive dogs than unstable ones. Aggressive dogs can be handled well and be great citizens if they have good owners. Some of the best dogs I know are naturally aggressive and capable of taking your head off. So are some of the best people I know. The people have learned to control and master their aggression. So have the dogs (with some training through great owners).

4. It always saddens me when a dog attacks a child or an innocent person.
In every case I've researched. The owners are Wacko. Certifiably, "here's your sign" Wacko. If you're wacko and have a little poodle and he gets wacko like you, so what? If you're wacko and have a dog who can crack coconuts with his jaws, and he's wacko like you ,there's a problem. If you're a dog owned by a really Wacko person, you have about zero chance to be a normal, responsible dog.

I'll give 3 recent, high profile example cases in my part of the world. In all cases, the original press report was that the dogs were "well behaved", and the owners were responsible.
2 dogs got out and horribly mauled a 10 year old boy in Oakland, CA. The owner did NOT stop to help the boy. He instead gathered the dogs into his car and drove them away and let them go free so they would not be caught and put down. He left the boy lying there, bleeding profusely.
WACKO. Here's your sign. Please wear it so we all know you're nuts.
The same owner, while under investigation for this incident, was arrested selling cocaine on the street corner. You're under investigation, your're under police surveilance, and you're dealing coke outdoors? Did I say WACKO? How about adding "Stupid" to the mix?

2 dogs (incorrectly identified as PitBulls, they're always pitbulls that attack people in the newspapers, except these were 140 lbs each, that's like saying "Former NFL Linebacker Bruce Lee..."), mastiff crosses, mauled a woman to death outside her San Francisco apartment. They broke loose from their owner's hand.
The owners were a pair of lawyers. Fine upstanding responsible citizens, right? Well..., they had a habit of defending violent skinhead white supremacists. They even adopted one of them while he was in prison.
WACKO, here's yer sign...

Finally, a woman's pitbull mauled her 12 year old to death. Tragic, and on the surface a normal family.
Except that the female dog was in heat, and the male dog was showing signs of aggression toward people. So first off, let's take the "unpredictable" out of the equation.
The mom, rather than lock the dog away, locked her 12 year old son in the basement and told him to stay there!
Umm... lock up the kid so the aggressive dog can stay out?
WACKO.

Tragically sad. But unpredictable? I'd have to say no.

You need a license to drive a car, but any idiot can reproduce, and any idiot can have a dog.

sigh... Rant over.

JK

You ain't nothing but a houwwnd dawg.


Get the hound outta here.


Steve