Is it a requirement

Therefore, if I had a sign that reads Self Protection Classes, will not seem as strong as Self Defense Classes?

so it seems... (sarcasm not withstanding)

its just that most members of Joe public that we asked considered that the martial arts and self-defence were one and the same thing, even though we dont consider that, and that self-protection was 'something else' that they thought had to do with fitting locks on doors and carrying personal alarms etc... ???

Not my thoughts and not arbitary in any way, just an interesting retrun from about 100 members of joe public, so hardly indicitive of anything really.

the use of the term 'self-protection' is more or less a modern thing in the martial arts world, prior to that schools, and instructors would usually use 'self-defence' in their ads etc.

I guess that they considered (overall) that SD was their techniques, whereas SP became more popular when other aspects than techniques only were added to the actual teachings

Looking upon the grand works of Marc MacYoung, Gavin de Becker, Kelly McCann, Geoff Thompson, Dave Grossman (please name your references upon a reply post);

Long ago, before many of these surfaced, in scant numbers, there were older books and authors (please name your references upon a reply post);

Whom were using their knowledge of Personal Safety, Self-Protection, Self-Defense apart from being actual martial art instructors.

I remember in the 60's-70's, Joe Public thought in order to learn this, one had to go to a martial art instructor

Interesting list ... maybe you know or not that in fact I was one of several people who TAUGHT Geoff Thomson for several years. I used to travel monthly down to his clubs for several years teaching Geoff and his students and in fact graded Geoff in my system.

Not really sure what you are after Richard, but I have just over 120 books on the 'martial arts' that ONLY mention the martial arts for self-defence.. the list would take me ages. The rest of my 1000 plus collection are magazines from the late 1890's.

I certainly never said that many instructors didnt TEACH other aspects, merely that we started this particular discussion regarding the TERMS not the techniques of self-defence/self-protection

Eric Dominy had a series of books on 'self-defence' using Judo/Ju-Jutsu
Bruce Tegner also only used 'Self-Defence' in his books on that subject even devising his own 'term' "Jukado" (Ju-Jutsu, Karate & Aikido blended for a combined Self-Defence style)

In my 1901 Health & Strength Magazines (the whole year) every instructor such as Professort Vigny from Savate, Percy Gerruty, and many more only used the term self-defence.

There are many books on self-defence using illustrations whether photos or drawings that simply show someone in a suit or a dress using whatever the art the author is skilled in.

Indeed I taught 'applied' methods that were bespoke for certain 'industries' in the late 1960's early 1970's to Doormen, Taxi Drivers.... I segregated the lessons THEN into
The Three Lines of Defence ....
Basically the list of "Personal Safety" ... "Self-Protection", and "Self-Defence" that I listed in an earlier post, but not using those terms.

you are correct that most members of the 'public' did indeed that self-defence and the martial arts were one and the same.

dont forget also that many 'terms' have been used to denote the 'self-defence' aspects of the martial arts..'unarmed combat', 'Defendo', and for many years even 'Boxing' was known as "The Noble Art of Self-Defence"...

Changes that happen internally in the martial arts, such as SD v SP can take a hell of a long time to become used in the everyday language of Joe Public, who frankly dont NEED to know the dfferences in their daily lives UNTIL they feel the need to learn.

No-one we interviewed said they ever considered taking up 'self-protection' but ALL either said they had thought about taking up 'self-defence' or would only use THAT term and werent 100% sure what 'self-protection' meant.

David Turton wrote: Interesting list ... maybe you know or not that in fact I was one of several people who TAUGHT Geoff Thomson for several years. I used to travel monthly down to his clubs for several years teaching Geoff and his students and in fact graded Geoff in my system.

I did not know this. That said, it would seem that Geoff had received more fame or recognition than you-no offense

David Turton wrote: Not really sure what you are after Richard, but I have just over 120 books on the 'martial arts' that ONLY mention the martial arts for self-defence.. the list would take me ages. The rest of my 1000 plus collection are magazines from the late 1890's.

I was looking to see who may have books in a collection that I do not have. Narrow it down-Pick ten of your favorites

David Turton wrote: I certainly never said that many instructors didnt TEACH other aspects, merely that we started this particular discussion regarding the TERMS not the techniques of self-defence/self-protection

I didn’t say you said anything. My earlier post was directed to anyone in particular. I made a generalize statement, especially of my past experiences-observations.

David Turton wrote: Eric Dominy had a series of books on 'self-defence' using Judo/Ju-Jutsu

Bruce Tegner also only used 'Self-Defence' in his books on that subject even devising his own 'term' "Jukado" (Ju-Jutsu, Karate & Aikido blended for a combined Self-Defence style)

Per Eric Dominy, as some others, it would seem that they focused more upon their art, in this case, Judo, then the many other aspects of “protection”

I had collected Tegner’s entire series of books, which at that time, there weren’t any iconic book stores or the internet. Simply, we ordered books from a public library. And if it weren’t for the small library having one of Tegner’s books, I could have not ordered his other publications way back then. Lately, I had been ridiculed my other martial artists for even owning those.

One such book which a librarian ordered for their stock was “Protect Yourself”, by Robert G. Barthol. This was a book that I checked out and it became long overdue. The librarian told me to simply “pay for it”. At that time, I thought that book was on a much different path (like nowadays) about defense apart from martial artists merely writing defense books based upon their martial art.

David Turton wrote: In my 1901 Health & Strength Magazines (the whole year) every instructor such as Professort Vigny from Savate, Percy Gerruty, and many more only used the term self-defence.

Self defense is a vague term. As I had stated, most of the books written in the earlier decades, were martial artists using their martial art as a reference for defense. They really did not study, write, or teach the other aspects.

David Turton wrote: There are many books on self-defence using illustrations whether photos or drawings that simply show someone in a suit or a dress using whatever the art the author is skilled in.

Per my above.

David Turton wrote: Indeed I taught 'applied' methods that were bespoke for certain 'industries' in the late 1960's early 1970's to Doormen, Taxi Drivers.... I segregated the lessons THEN into
The Three Lines of Defence ....
Basically the list of "Personal Safety" ... "Self-Protection", and "Self-Defence" that I listed in an earlier post, but not using those terms.

What terms did you use?

David Turton wrote: you are correct that most members of the 'public' did indeed that self-defence and the martial arts were one and the same.

It is this “under educated” mindset, that Joe Public also have of martial arts in general. After I had studied Judo (which at that time, boys were interested in boxing for learning to fight), I was fortunate to have a (now well-known) Karate school nearby. Halfway through this, the fellas I have known to be in boxing, started to practice Judo. Judo then stated to become very popular. (Judo wasn’t popular or even a spoken household name when I left.) When I told them and Joe Public, I was studying Karate, they kept making references (in some innuendo or pun) to it calling it Judo.

David Turton wrote: dont forget also that many 'terms' have been used to denote the 'self-defence' aspects of the martial arts..'unarmed combat', 'Defendo', and for many years even 'Boxing' was known as "The Noble Art of Self-Defence"...

Per above, boxing was considered by many as a prime defense study. In the 50’s, the gyms were packed. Gym owners literally picked out who they wanted to coach. When I went to apply at some boxing gyms, it was like the Nazi’s selecting males from a stock of young boys. The gym owners-coaches were biased or had prejudices. One of the reasons why I became more interested in Judo, way back then.

David Turton wrote: Changes that happen internally in the martial arts, such as SD v SP can take a hell of a long time to become used in the everyday language of Joe Public, who frankly dont NEED to know the dfferences in their daily lives UNTIL they feel the need to learn.

I agree. It is up to those qualified, to help educate Joe Public

David Turton wrote: No-one we interviewed said they ever considered taking up 'self-protection' but ALL either said they had thought about taking up 'self-defence' or would only use THAT term and werent 100% sure what 'self-protection' meant.

As I had somewhat stated earlier, Joe Public is under educated on the subject. Part of this is the many myths and off-beat history, associated subjects, and projections that many martial artists were holding onto, thus creating more confusion to Joe Public. In other words, many martial artists were not helping the situation