Why Wing Chun?

Nick, I see from your profile that you appear to have dallied a wee bit in these 'ere martial arts!

Having read bad reviews before of its practical effectiveness, I was wondering why you have taken up Wing Chun?

I've never done a proper martial art in me life and was wondering if I might give it a go too.

Mate,

I usually pick up particular arts to fill a current need. I.e. in Oz karate was great for what I was doing but, when I ended up body guarding in the UK Judo was a better fit for the job.

When I got over here and found out I lived amonst guys who are more apt to use knives and hunt in packs I began doing FMA in earnest and, after a motorcycle accident that ruptured two discs (which put an end to most of my kicking) I began Wing Chun.

What I liked about it was that it teaches you to fight effectively (if you find a good instructor) at "phone box" range and uses minimal low kicks (better for me at the time). It also gets you comfortable at standing toe to toe and throwing punches at one another which isn't bad desensitization training for fighting for real.

What it's lacking is good footwork for hunting someone down that doesn't want to stay toe to toe, groundwork and getting out of holds from behind. You have to understand though that most arts evolved specializing in one or another aspect of fighting (boxing = hands only, Judo = no strikes, Tae Kwan Do = all kicks) so all of them will be lacking other facets. My recommendation has always been get yourself a black belt in a base art and then add the missing ingredients later.

Nick

Nick:

Do you mind if I jump in here?

Katsumo:

I´ve been doing wing chun for a few years and IMHO it can be great and it can be rubbish, depending on the school. It´s worth visiting a few local instructors to get a flavour of what´s on offer. If you can find a good teacher, it can be a fantastic base art and you don´t need to be a natural athlete to get good at it.

Before you start looking, it´s worth doing a little bit of research. I strongly recommend a book called "Look Beyond the Pointing Finger" by David Peterson, which you can buy at the Wing Chun Archive on Ebay - http://stores.ebay.com/Wing-Chun-Archive_W0QQfcdZ2QQfromZR10QQftsZ2QQsaselZ10850033QQsofpZ0QQtZkm

It´s also worth taking a look at the videos on Gary Lam's site here - http://www.garylamwingchun.com/movies.html This is what good wing chun looks like. If you find a school where the training looks a bit like that, it´s likely to be good.

Also, it´s worth bearing in mind that the best wing chun instructors often have very modest websites. They won´t wear robes or call themselves grandmasters. The worst ones often tend to be egomaniacs.

Good luck!
RGC

Thanks very much for the info, guys. If I can manage to stay in one place long enough with a good instructor I will definitely get stuck into it. As Nick mentioned, I'd like to get a belt in a 'proper' martial just for the experience really as much as anything.

This is apparently a Wing Chun 'animal day'. Be interested if you guys can confirm that as it is rather interesting in terms of realism within that style. Not much evidence of trapping I noticed!

BTW, turn the sound, off it's got the usual wank sound track put to it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegFuKZAyUc

I´ve seen that before. It´s wing tsun, which means it belongs to Leung Ting's lineage. Leung Ting is a truly impressive grandmaster of marketing and he runs one of the largest martial arts organizations in the world. He has a few good people in his organization, but with so many students there might be some (coughs) quality control issues.

With the clip, on the one hand it´s good that they´re getting stuck in. On the other hand, they´re not really doing wing chun at all.

Whereabouts are you BTW? And which clubs are you looking at?

Katsumoto

If you do opt for Wing Chun as your base art I'd give a swerve to the guys in the clip for the reasons Socrates mentioned. Look up some of the more reputable guys in the UK and get stuck in.

After you've trained a year or so get along to some ju-jutsu classes and then some FMA and you'll be good to go.

Nick

Ok, looks like my languageskills are broken today...

"Give a swerve to" does this mean avoid or visit?

R

Means avoid mate.

"Look Beyond the Pointing Finger" by David Peterson is in my library and is a very good read. I was fortunate to train under David Peterson a few years ago and he is not only an excellent practitioner, but also an excellent teacher.

Katsumoto, where abouts in the UK are you based and what type of MA do you have around you?

Thanks for all the WC input, guys, much appreciated.

Matty, I'm in t'north at the moment but that will all be changing shortly so I don't know exactly where I'm going to end up.

I'm only really interested in a TMA for an interest, recreational thing to do. I've done enough fighting in my youth to know I'm not entirely shite and the techniques I've been training intensively for the past 3 years have added well to that.

I like the look of Wing Chun, especially the fact that I don't have to learn to kick over my, or anyone else's, head and it has a pretty succinct 'syllabus'.

What does put me off the traditional stuff quite a bit - being a non-martial artist - is what appears to be the rampant 'politics' and bitchiness that seems to abound.

What an outsider like me needs is to be able to get an idea of an art, see if I like it/it suits me, then be able to find a reliable instructor so I'm putting my time into something valid for what I thought I was going to learn.

Unfortunatly mate when Money and Ego comes in, Politics and Bitchiness seem to breed...Wing Chun is good I did it for about 18 months under some really good Instructors..the sylabuss is succint but if taught properly will still take a while..most people want to rush through the system..you would be better just learning the first 2 forms thouroghly..it is good stuff and if you have a good base its intresting stuff as 50% of it is conceptual anyway..thats why a lot of it looks weird..FMA is also worth looking into if youre looking at that kind of stuff..wish you well with it...

Matty

Can anyone give me an idea of who to look out for in lineage/style and who to avoid?

Being not that bright or knowledgable about martial arts, I get confused with all wing chun/ving tsun/wing tsun/chicken fried rice/etc...

Katsumoto its all Wing Chun or meant to be, the different spellings are just marketing ploys to differentiate..the Cantonese dosent exactly translate to the English exactly so thts why the Wing,Ving etc....

There is good and bad probably in each org so look at the local setup and Instructor more than anything else...I trained under Sifu Sean Rawcliffes Midlands Wing Chun Kuen and they are very very Good..Sean is one of Grandmaster Ip Chuns reps there are only 17 of these world wide, although alot of people claim to be there not..just because someone has Ip chun trained or disciple on their website dosent mean they are certified as a rep.If you want detailed, effective, traditional and non commercial Wing Chun then id say thats the way to go...I have also heard good things about the Wong Shun Leung lineage people..I think Clive Potter represents them in the UK..I dont know personally the quality because i havent trained with them..but Wong Shun Leung was a top WC man and the book by David Peterson is certainly reccomended..so they are the two directions id be looking in...most of the others mate in the uK you will be wasting time in my opinion....if you want to pM ever ill be happy to give my opinions more openly on any school etc specificly....

Good luck with it all

Matty

Katsumoto wrote:Can anyone give me an idea of who to look out for in lineage/style and who to avoid?

Being not that bright or knowledgable about martial arts, I get confused with all wing chun/ving tsun/wing tsun/chicken fried rice/etc...

Katsumoto

What animal is that in your avatar?

Looks like the Karate-Guinea Pig to me!

Can anyone give me an idea of who to look out for in lineage/style and who to avoid?

Katsumo: Only three or four people got the complete system from Yip Man in Hong Kong. One of them was Wong Shun Leung. He trained full-time for a long time and fought in lots of "beimos" or unlicensed rooftop fights. He was totally undefeated at the time. He was also a senior student to Bruce Lee and coached him through his first fight.

Wong Shun Leung is a total legend in Hong Kong martial arts circles, but he´s not so well known internationally. He was a full-time instructor from the late 1960s and taught lots of very talented people over the years. My teacher, Nino Bernardo, who now lives in Ibiza, completed the system with him after training full-time for a period and ran a school in London until 2000. Some of Nino's contempories include Gary Lam in California, Barry Lee in Germany and Cliff Au Yeung and Ng Chun Hong in Hong Kong.

Some other students of Wong Shun Leung include two Australians called David Peterson, the author of the book I mentioned earlier, and John Smith. Philipp Bayer in Germany also learnt with him.

If you can´t train with any of these old-school guys, I recommend that you go and visit some of the instructors from the next generation. For example, Guy Cofie, my "sihing," completed the system under Nino and now runs the Warehouse in London. You can find his contact details on www.ninobernardo.com

Other instructors to look out for in London are Steven Girrard - http://www.dragonhall.co.uk/ - and Michael Louison - http://www.wingchunart.co.uk/ I haven´t trained with either of them, but they are both my sihings (seniors) and have awesome reputations.

If you do some web searches, you will also find that some of the other old-school guys have representatives in the UK. For example, I believe David Peterson has an instructor in Manchester. I´ve no idea how good he is though.

have also heard good things about the Wong Shun Leung lineage people..I think Clive Potter represents them in the UK..I dont know personally the quality because i havent trained with them..but Wong Shun Leung was a top WC man and the book by David Peterson is certainly reccomended..

How can I say this without getting banned? Clive Potter did train with Wong Shun Leung and did set up a UK association for him. Since Wong Shun Leung died in 1997, he has claimed to be his UK representative. I know that view is not widely accepted by others in the same lineage.

Having said that, Clive Potter's associate Anthony Kan has a good reputation among his peers. He also speaks Chinese, which is useful if you´re going to train under a Chinese instructor in Hong Kong who barely speaks a word of English! If you go to Clive Potter's website, you´ll get a pop-up ad offering private tuition with Anthony Kan. That would certainly be worthwhile if you live nearby.

One thing I´d like to add is that Wong Shun Leung was a very modest man. He assumed people would find out about his background, so he never talked about it. The same thing is true of many of his students and the people in his lineage. Many of them would much rather run excellent little clubs and keep a low profile.

On the other hand, some of the people who are much less qualified shout from the rooftops about how great they are. If you see anyone who claims to be a "chi sao champion" or a "grandmaster" or wears robes, give them a wide swerve!

Other things to avoid are instructors who have trained for less than 10 years (unless they trained full-time), people who are 17 generations away from Yip Man and instructors who claim to be licensed in loads of other martial arts too.

Although the Wong Shun Leung lineage is a very rich one, you can definitely find good instructors in other lineages too. I´d advise you to visit lots of schools with an open mind before signing up for a class.

Also, good wing chun has a strong reality-based element to it, but it´s not a pure reality art. In other words, the stuff you will be doing at the beginning might look a bit strange as you have to be very relaxed to get the weird triangular body mechanics. Stick with it, though, and the reality stuff will come later. Also, read up on soft skills (awareness, target hardening and so on) as you won´t be getting much of that...

All the best,
RGC

Good Post Socrates, I d second it all, The Wong Shung Leung Guys certainly have a good reputation, and yes Socrates is right Wong Shun Leung was the senior Instructor in Grandmaster Yip Mans Kwoon (school) and was a revered Roof top fighter..I dont know how many people learnt the entire system fro GM Yip Man..but from my research it seems to be certainly less than 10, Wong Shun Leung was certainly one of them..

Certainly wasnt aware that Clive Potter wasnt regarded as by all as the Wong Shun Leung Rep for the Uk and as i said ive never trained with those guys so id probably being looking at the guys under Nino Bernado then for more direction...

I cant stress how important it is too find the right Sifu with the right lineage in Wing Chun..or you really are wasting your time..the reasons being that most of the technique is hidden in the form and if the forms havent been taught completely you will not be learning Wing Chun at all, the other thing mate is 90% of what you find in the UK is 90% watered down..so if you want WC you must stay close to the source...Which is Yip Man...

Dont overlook GM Yip Mans Sons, they started training in their 30's when they were more mature and Yip Man as a teacher was also more Mature his WC was more refined and they definetly learnt the complete system.GM Ip Chun (Yip Mans oldest son) is a very humble mannow in his 80's alot of people use him go over to HK and get there photos with him and then set up websites etc..his WC is very very good obviously as the eldest son of GM yip Man there is no one closer to his system..There are people again that Ip Chun has taught the full system to..and they are his 17 reps, 2 are in the UK mate Colin Ward in the north (leeds area) and Sean Rawcliffe who runs the midlands wing chun kuen. I trained under one of Seans students and the tuition is excellant they are humble , non political and the WC is authentic and extremely good, the detail they go into is immense , im sure anyone who trains with them will understand they are getting the real deal.They are not publicity merchants and also dont accept everyone they check your charachter out etc .Ill post their links in the next post...Definetly worth checking out if you end up in an area close to one of their schools..

I have also trained under instructors who have trained under Austin Goh and also an instructor under Sam Kwok....their teaching methods to be fair mate did not impress me ,their hand spped was good and their party tricks were good but aside of that their WC tuition was not a fraction of what it should of been.

If I was starting out in WC id goto oneof the Sifu Sean Rawcliffe schools or got to one of the Nino Bernado Schools as Socrates pointed out..thats the bottom line really in the UK...Colin Ward in the north again is worth seeing.......


Good luck with it..ill post them links....

Mattyboy

Matty: I´ve heard good things about Shaun Rawcliffe too, although I haven´t trained with him myself. This is the link to his site: http://www.wingchun.co.uk/index_1.htm

Cheers Socrates,

Saved me getting the link up..Strange isnt it..Ive heard Good Stuff about the people you have trained under..but never trained with them..and you have also heard good things about the Guys I trained under....I really do beleive that there the only authentic guys left out there in the uK..sad but also good for us guys who have had the privelege.


Take Care



Matty

Thanks for the info, guys, much appreciated.

OK, can you tell me what comprises the 'complete system'?

And if you water it down, what are they leaving out of it?

You can find an interesting article about the full system here: http://www.ninobernardo.com/wing%20chun%20syllabus.html

There are normally four ways the system can get watered down:

1) Mixing up the mechanics of the third form and the core syllabus, as it mentions in the article.

2) Misunderstanding chi sao.

3) Not having one or more of the later forms and just making it up or borrowing techniques from another art. The knife form is notorious for this.

4) Starting to teach before mastering the core mechanics, then adding in other elements (such as boxing punches) or changing the footwork because it doesn´t seem to work. More often than not, this ends up in a mess.

You can imagine what the situation would be like if people left Hong Kong after a few years training, set up a school overseas, bluffed their way through a form or two and then started licensing students to teach before they were ready...

I´m not saying people shouldn´t innovate, just that it´s best to really understand what you´re doing before changing things.

Spot on,

Id agree with Socrates's 4 points there and the article by Nino Bernardo is very good Ive just read it myself.

The main Danger is People just want to rush through the system when really there is so much to get from each stage, the problem now is that most of the instructors in the western world are people that have been rushed through taught by others who also were rushed through..

Unless you have a good grounding in the first Form you simply cant have any thing worthwhile in the following forms, The first Form again looks really weird and seems to have nothing to do with fighting whatso ever. Basics and the mastery of Basics is really key before moving on.The third form again is a great mystery to most and is not part of the system it is just there to help the student to recover weakness in the system and also to recognise that the system has flaws..it should only be taught at an extremly advanced level once the first two forms and possibly the Dummy have been mastered and then should only be used to recover bad position etc...Most people unfortunately just rush through forgetting the first two forms and relying solely on the third they then factor in other Arts to make up for their losses.

My old Sifu did the first form for 5 years, not because he had too but he wanted to master it, he was told 18 months was fine, but he wanted to go on and really perfect it, he was blitzing other students who had learnt the whole system just because hed got his basics right.

The system builds on itself so its important to get everything properly, and beleive me in each form there is a whole world of techniques...and possibilitys..in the first two forms there are loads of throws and takedowns , arm bars and joint locks, anti grappling measures and joint destructions on top of all the trapping and punching and footwork..but most people dont know about these throws..because they havent gone deep into the system..

The whole system should if you train properly and under a good teacher take about 7 years if you train twice a week with practice at home..by the time you finish Chum Kiu you should be at good fighting Level about 2.5 years in...again you wont to be training under people that have 10 years in the system...there is so much in there an instructor needs the experience other time.....

Avoid Hybrid Arts with a WC base..youre better off learning a good part of the pure system and then doing youre own Cross training.

Remeber Bruce Lee only got to Chum Kiu Level (second form) and he trained 8 years under Yip Man in HK where they train 5 hours a day!!!


Wish you well with it...no system is 100% complete..if you do get to some good Wing Chun it will be worth it even if you just learn the first two forms...The concepts are absolutely phenomenal.....



Wish you well
Matty

Another good post, Matty. People might think it´s some weird conspiracy that we keep popping up all over the site agreeing with each other! Can I just say that we´ve never even met...

The only thing I´d disagree with is the length of time it takes to get the whole system. I think it´s a couple of years training full-time or ten years or more training part-time. Personally, I´m still trying to make the first two forms look right after six years! Then again, I´ve never claimed to be any good...

Good posts both of you.