Geoff Thompson

Nick, some very good points. As for shooting on the sidewalk or street I definately agree, thats why we don't do it. We do practice defence against it, but it's only one guy who shoots in, personally I have only done it a couple of times in training...I don't like it even in training. As one of my students pointed out he would NEVER ever use this i any context. Neither would I. double legs and many other Greco-Roman holds and throws etc, yes. I do play at BJJ as much as possible with real players and enjoy it. When we practice in our club it's only for G&P...getting out of, or getting in a dominant position to use it. As I've said before the goal (not there yet by a mile!) of our club is to use the best techniques to win a fight in the cage or the street... not one or the other.
What I will say about BJJ is that until you've trained with them (NOT DIRECTED AT YOU NICK) you will never know if your anti-grappling stuff will work. It also gives a chance to really go full out (not as good as Judo obviously) and this I believe enhances your will/tenacity to survive altercations. BJJ does not stand up on it's own as a fighting art.

Oh and if I was ever in the strange postion of getting an arm bar in the street I would break the arm without doubt.

Tommy was this your old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkYF2MfHKzw&NR=1style?... ha I like drunken style

Rob Mac wrote:Tommy was this your old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkYF2MfHKzw&NR=1style?... ha I like drunken style

Really enjoyed this thread, and feel I am learning from you guys. Appreciated.

Rob Mac wrote:Tommy was this your old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkYF2MfHKzw&NR=1style?... ha I like drunken style

That looked kind of like they were play fighting...a little soft and no leg kicks. But yes it appeared to be Kyokushin. However we were doing more of this Kyokushin:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7069056831493262492

Clip courtesy of Steve on another thread.
Tommy

Rob Mac,

I've done Judo and Ju-jutsu for years mate (before my motorbike accident) and yes, I've rolled with the BJJ guys (awesome on the ground but their standup grappling sucks) just for the record.

Regarding you breaking someone's arm...have you ever? It's real easy to say you will, even easier to write about it...it's a whole lot different when you do it for real. Second problem you've got is that if that fight was low key - and an awful lot of them are - and you slipped in beer slops and went down with someone on top who'd grabbed you as you fell, your arm break is going to get you some serious jail time.

Bottom line is you don't have the legal right to break someone's arm (GBH) over something so minor as a scrap that started off with shirt grabbing and name calling. (that's something else that the sports crowd don't cover i.e. legal ramifications of what they're doing...think the FMA kid who's doing tall time for stabbing and killing the bouncer in NY was taught self protection and legal ramifications by his instructor or just a collection of cool techniques)

Nick

PS: Interesting that all 3 of you said essentially the same thing...i.e. yeah we learn them but we wouldn't use them in the street. I'd remind you again, you WILL fight the way you train which is why Tommy had trouble protecting his head after Kyokushin and the Gracie broke his knee shooting. You all did exactly what Tommy accused the TMA guys of doing.

Nick, looks like the same old wrangle is going to be going on here with your views about TMA against mine.

I've been working on quite a comprehensive reply to various points you've raised about TMA. The arguments are quite subtle and so it's taken some time to write and rewrite. And my typing isn't great. But it will be coming, and I'll let you know.

But with regard to this thread, I can see some difficulty arising, not from the thread itself but from the fact that I've set out a deadline effective tomorrow that nobody will be able to post on my side without a clip.

It would great if you put up a clip, Nick, because that would be supportive of what I'm trying to do: namely, to get rid of the keyboard warrior image. But if you haven't done it yet, I'm not sure if you will. I don't want to delete your posts or create bad feeling, but I will have to do it. Otherwise everybody will feel free to post without their clip, and that defeats the whole purpose.

I really do hope I can count on your support on this one. It would send a message to the internet community that this is a serious discussion amongst martial artists and aspiring martial artists, and not keyboard warriors pretending to be something they're not. A clip from you would set a precedent and perhaps encourage others to do the same. I want to move this thing forward.

Bloody nuisance I thought your reasoning for gettting into grappling was spot on. After only six months of judo instruction I had an altercation with a head doorman who outweighed me by at least six stone. I had no back up except for my very worried wife to be. He wanted a one on one in a small corridor with one of his cronies watching the door. He nutted me, I nutted him back and we went to the floor where he was pathetic. It took another three doorman to get me off him as I was choking the life out of him. My limited ability to twist and turn and get a dominant position saved my neck that night.

Nick, you really suprise me. I know you've trained BJJ Judo etc that was why I put 'NICK THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT YOU. Secondly I thought I wrote how we DONT train for submission but for position IF you go down there, the emphasis is not to go there!. Thirdly I'm not a school kid who has never been there Nick. And having served time and can safely tell you if I have to do it again I will. No I haven't broken arms, as I said if I happened to be there I would. Cheers Rob

Oh yeah, Arthur well done mate.

Another point, Nick it would be good if you posted a clip so that you can keep posting here. You raise some interesting points and it's good to have input from someone from a different slant....even if you did ignore most of my post! Anyway enough bunny I'moff training and got a camera tody!!

Edited to put in a little montage of MMA fights with Couture waxing about the benefits of MMA... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A2PMcYfrIw&feature=related please please please Nick show a clip of this Karate stuff or anything else that you train that is more relevant to the street than this.

[quote="Nick Hughes"] Tommy had the quoted weakness ingrained into him. In other words he was reacting the way he'd trained to react.
[quote]

Tommy had trouble protecting his head after Kyokushin and the Gracie broke his knee shooting.

I'm not sure about this point Nick, although I can see the reasoning. While I can agree that you fight as you train I think that holds true for forming fighting style. train easy and you'll fight easy. Train to pull punches and you will pull punches. Train to jump into a big stance at the first sign of trouble and you will. The Gracie's train a lot of shooting and ground fighting and they do it almost exclusively so that is how they fight. If you train in point sparring then no doubt your reaction may be to pull your punch short in a real situation. My lack of head protection, IMO, wasn't a habit formed by training it was a "lack" of training in that area. It was something missing rather than a bad habit developed through endless reps.

For example, we also kicked to the head repeatedly in practice and in sparring. But out of that environment I "don't" kick to the head often....it's not really my preference. There are a lot of things I did in my training that I don't do outside of that environment. I did them endlessly because they were required but I didn't fit them into my fighting outside of Kyokushin. So I think that by practicing a wide variety of things and doing them well, you gain the ability to make a choice in how you will approach a situation or opponent. "If" your training is in order. I don't think you just go on automatic as far as techniques go, just mindlessly doing what you practiced. What does become automatic are your reactions. Yes, my head protection was poor but that wasn't a bad "habit" from training, that was more of a "missing" element.

Protecting my head became something I had to learn, not something I had to "unlearn." It is a fairly simple fix.

Tommy

Damnnn I didn't know I had a keyboard warrior image...that's pretty funny. Given I trained with you Steve, with Gavin, Dan and Stuart Gent when I was in the UK(and you said I was the only one throwing a thai kick properly that day) I didn't think it was necessary.

Unfortunately I'm a techno-peasant. If Hock had never shot my DVD series I doubt they'd have ever been done and I don't even have clips up on my own website. If I can get one of my students who's savvy in that realm I'll see what they can do but don't hold your breath.

As for waiting for the answers...I've been waiting two and a bit years for the one about your claim of only eight years of TMA (you did say on your web site you were going to answer that one soon...I guess soon is relative) so no problem...take your time.

Regarding deleting everything, have at it mate...at least that way every post on there will agree with your viewpoint - why you could even change the name and call it SteveMorrisIsAlwaysRight.com

Right, I'm off to hide behind my keyboard again. (note to self, buy a bigger keyboard for next time I'm on the door).

Rob I'll pm you with some points as I'm sure this will be deleted before you get back on here.

Nick

PS: I'm off to train with Steve Babbs

PPS: Tommy - your reply popped up while I was typing this. I'll either answer you down on my forum (don't worry, you don't need to send a clip before you can post there ) or PM you mate.

But surely Nick that is why you HAVE to keep posting. Otherwise this all becomes a back slapping MMA club. I know alot of your background from your posts and should have realised I have respect for you and your opinions. That being said I still would like to see 'what' this thing is that you know of that beats MMA FOR ALL ROUND FIGHTING ABILITY. I'm genuinely interested as to what you are doing NOW! Not trying to suss you out. Cheers Rob

Nick Hughes wrote:
if you're training to shoot in and take someone to the ground on a regular basis guess what you're going to do in the street? You don't have to take my word for that (or Tommy's).

A few points:

- There are many ways to take someone down without 'shooting'

- When done properly (with level change and penetration) the knee does not hit the floor during a shot but slides along it, minimising impact to the knee

- In any event you can shoot without putting your knee on the floor

- Not all altercations happen on concrete e.g. a nightclub floor..grass, sand etc.

Nick Hughes wrote:
Google the story about the Gracie chap who broke his knee cap shooting in on someone on a New York sidewalk (where are those pesky mats when you need them?)

One cherry picked anecdote does not an argument make. What about all the endless anecdotes of people who have broken hands or feet from striking in street altercations? Does that invalidate striking methods? Of course not.

Nick Hughes wrote:
If your ground game involves cool things like armlocks that make your opponent tap out in the ring just what are you hoping to achieve with them in the street. Either your opponent doesn't know anything about tapping in which case your faced with the dilemma of breaking his arm (excessive for a fight that began as some name calling and shirt grabbing) or, letting him go and hoping he's learned his lesson? Which one would you do?

Armlocks dont 'break the arm' as in the bones except in rare cases. They hyperextend/strain the ligaments/joint capsule. You see it all the time in BJJ and Judo comps and MMA. People are usually back to normal in about 2 weeks. What they do is temporarily immobalise the arm and caus immense pain/shock.

Nick Hughes wrote:
All your leg locks and arm locks in the street then, and all your cranks etc have almost zero viability in the real world then, unless you're in a fight that justifies crippling, maiming or killing someone.

Armlocks and Leglocks dont kill and rarely would cripple (only really heelhooks and spine locks have that potential and they are by no means bread and butter in BJJ.).

You are much more likely to kill someone by striking them in the head (which I presume you would advocate) then by a submission hold.
Besides the real bread and butter of BJJ is chokes which are a very effective strategy in a fight. when applied they will incapacitate anyone within about 5 - 10 seconds. Also positional dominance which not only allows you to apply submissions but also to strike with impunity.

If you actually trained in BJJ rather than just speculating about it you'd find this out very quickly.

Nick Forrer some good food for thought there, that's what it's all about.

Nick Forrer wrote: One cherry picked anecdote does not an argument make. What about all the endless anecdotes of people who have broken hands or feet from striking in street altercations? Does that invalidate striking methods? Of course not.

Good point.

Concerning bad habits developed by how you train.


I find certain little details that cause a disconnect between "traditional" (not modified) karate fighting and fighting in general. There are a good deal of Okinawan and Japanese karate systems that follow sword movements in footwork, body shifting and technique. With your opponents two hands on a weapon there is a difference in your defense than if he is free to use his hands independently. Without getting into detail as it would take up too much space and I wouldn't know how to put it into text anyway, here is one example.

A lot of karate styles would have you move to the outside of your opponents attack. A good example is Shotokan in their practice of "irimi" and "tenkan," Aikido would also be familiar with this. Basically "entering."
You may find yourself skimming past your opponents attack and ending up behind him at a 45 degree angle. In sword practice I have heard it said that if he cuts your kimono then you have stuck close enough to the attack while still avoiding it. This is thought of as good.

Take that into karate and you find things like scooping blocks or "gyaku' versions of down blocks etc. (gyaku would be blocking with your hip reversed). In essence, if I blocked a left lead leg front kick with my right down block or sweep/scoop to the outside and wanted the kick to pass to my right I would turn my hip to the left and my right shoulder would also move to my left pointing at my opponent. This moves me to his outside and cocks the hip for my counter punch. based on sword movement this works since he has over extended himself and I am now passed him and his weapon "slightly," (I entered). In empty hand it works well also because they chamber their fists and that movement sets up the chambered fist at the hip ready to fire. And they don't normally make contact to the face.

Ok now take that to a kickboxing or Muay Thai scenario. If you turn your shoulder into your opponent while dropping that right hand to scoop/sweep the kick, you will catch a right cross or an elbow right in the face! The better way to do that block is to move the upper torso/shoulder back so that your 'left" shoulder is facing your opponent, which allows you to put your fist and arm up along the side of your face/head to protect and also sets you up positionally to counter with your knee or your right.

Kind of hard to explain but the point is that many of karate's movements are based on sword patterns and don't work in many empty hand situations if the other guy knows what he is doing.

Tommy

Nick, I'm not asking you for the clip because I think you're a keyboard warrior--far from it. But I'm trying to make this forum into something different, and to keep the keyboard warriors under control, I'm requiring everybody to have a video representation of themselves. It's about identity as a martial artist or an aspiring martial artist.

It's not about whether I know you, it's about having a visible reprsentation of everybody here, that is public. Lots of guys who post on here, I know them. My Primal lot are up on the warmup clip, and I've got some more footage of them coming. I'm going to have to ask Tom O'Shaughnessy and Vincent Jauncey to comply as well. Dennis Jones, whom I hold in high regard, has also said he's going to respect my request.

I want this forum to be about serious martial art discussion, and nothing else.

Now I can relate if you're not into the technical side of it, because neither am I. My partner does all my clips. If that's the problem, then it's not a problem. Drop us a DVD or give somebody in England who has a DVD of yours permission to lend it to me, and let me know which bit you want posted. It's easy.

If you don't support the idea of what I'm trying to do, then I guess you can say what you want to say on your own forum. I'm sure people will go over there and read it if they want to.

But Steve Morris I'm Always Right .com? If I'd taken that attitude I wouldn't have got very far in the martial arts.

And by the way, I'm not going to go back and wipe out all of your comments, or anybody's. I think you've got the wrong idea about why I'm doing this.

And Nick, your friend Bryson Keenan not only posted a clip, but asked for a critique and when the critique was critical, he took it standing up. And the reason I stopped doing the critiques was because I want to ENCOURAGE people to post, not make them think I'm here to judge them or have a laugh at their expense. That honestly is not the case. And anybody who knows me as a teacher knows that I'll work with ANYBODY, and I'll give that person all of my knowledge and effort to move them just one fucking step forward. I'm not an elitist.

Roadkill posted too--you're doing a course with him. He didn't make a big deal about it.

On the TMA piece--has it really been 2 and a half years? Knowing me, that's perfectly possible. You probably won't believe me, but I really have been working on it on and off quite seriously for some time. Your two questions with regard to me and karate and your definition of TMA, I'm dealing with them together and in some depth. Because I want to make it clear to everyone exactly what I was doing, when, where and why. And I also want to explain what I believe a tradition is.

Now you might be able to toss off an answer really quickly, but what people may not realise is that I'm not a writer. If it's something that I can't just talk out an answer fairly simply--like this post--if I have to go and start writing it down, then there's a good chance it will take months. I work very hard at the articles I write. Sometimes there's hundreds of pages of notes.

To me these are really good questions, and I'm going to give you fucking good answers.

About a month ago I had it almost ready to go, and then I was working on the computer and I don't know what happened--pressed a key and it was gone, couldn't get off the online backup because something had got saved over it, and I had to go back to a draft from about a year ago when Jon Law asked me the question about animals (Jon, sorry about that, you'll be waiting a bit longer too!--oh, and I've got about 150 clips to support that one on the Fujian systems)

Anyway, Nick, I really hope you take me up on the offer to post a clip of your choice for you, because I'd like you to feel free to come over and say what you like.

And I think the way the internet is going, it won't be long before everything is video posts and you won't be typing your responses. Forums will probably take a completely different direction.

PS, Nick, if you do want to take me up on the offer, then I'm sure nobody will object if you carry on posting until we can organize the clip. Just let me know, and feel free to post on here.

A couple of guys have PMd me to say that they aren't able to get clips up yet and so are not posting out of respect for what I'm trying to do. Guys, I hope you can manage something soon and if there's anything I can do to help, let me know.

OK, I've just had a look over on your forum, Nick. If that's the position you want to take, then I guess there was no point in my offer, which was sincere.

Why are you so defensive about all this? Aren't your clips worth looking at? I've seen some good reviews of your DVDs. Are you afraid the clips won't match up with your reputation? What is it? Explain it. Don't just put up stupid shit about bread puddings. That's already been done over on UGF, as I found out recently when Steve Rowe contacted me to tell me he found it offensive.

Rowe wasn't the only one who found it offensive. Your own student, Gavin Mulholland found it offensive and thanks to the efforts of Gavin, Tony Pillage, Dennis Jones, Jon Law, and myself the forum has now changed direction so that it will be properly moderated. Which can only be a good thing for martial arts.

It's the discussion over on UGF that's a perfect example of what I don't want to have on my forum. Guys who can't do shit sitting behind a computer getting their rocks off by taking the piss out of anything and everything. And here you are, on what is considered to be a respectable forum, encouraging more of the same.

With the posts I just read this morning after posting back to you, my opinion of you has just gone down. Way down.

And this kind of division, any personal bickering between you and me, that's what these assholes get off on. They like to see the big boys brought down to size with petty disputes. The Dennis Martin thing is an example. I'm happy to disagree with you on matters of martial arts, and I don't have any problem with you airing your views that obviously are in opposition to my own. But let's keep it professional, not personal.

So my offer stands if you want to reconsider your direction on this one. I really don't want to get into a petty argument with you, but if you want to play this one out, I do have the entire discussion from UGF saved on my computer even though most of it has been now deleted.

We can throw it open for discussion on this forum and find out what people think about it.

Steve,

Couple of quick points (and I apologize for posting beyond the deadline but I'm sure you'll agree it gets silly if I have to cut and paste everything from here and post it down on my section)

1. I'm hardly defensive about me, my stuff or any clips. I've done articles for Terry on my stance on things yonks ago, taught seminars and released dvds of both combat karate (videos) and fight survival. I'd hardly be here on a Q&A section if I was defensive about my stuff.

2. The way I called it - and incidentally, so did others - was that anyone who wasn't posting a clip was a keyboard warrior. Sorry digger but if someone questions my ability of course I'm going to say something about it. We wouldn't be who we are, or doing what we do, if we rolled over every time someone said something insulting to us, perceived or otherwise.

3. Understood re the answers to my questions

4. Have absolutely no idea what the UGF is or what's going on over there. Is someone upset about the bread pudding thing or is this something else entirely? Who, or what, is UGF?

5. Re the bread pudding thing...as one of the guys already mentioned...it's a joke amigo. Notice the digs I had at BrianS, Mick Coup et al. We can't be serious all the time. I've never demanded anything of anyone on my forum...ever, nor have I ever banned anyone from it. I always assumed I was a guest here at the behest of Lito (originally) and Brian S and was taking the mickey at you for asking for clips before being allowed to post anymore...nothing more sinister than that. I figured with your military background you'd be up for a bit of mickey taking...apparently not.

Nick

Nick,

That's one hell of a coincidence, then, because Paul Norris has just posted something very similar over on United Goju Forum, except he goes far as to ask whether I am an ungrateful prima dona twat. He also refers to people making a salad on You Tube for my inspection. So your bread pudding sounds pretty familiar. Very big coincidence, eh? Norris almost could have written your post, and in fact he seems to feel he should be credited as well--he says as much on your thread.

I saved the transcript before it was deleted by Gavin Mulholland. Can't fit all of it in one post, so I'll stick on its own thread, which should give Norris a big hard-on because he lives to be famous through other people.

I'll call the thread Bread Pudding so you can recognize it easily.

By the way, sure I've dished out and taken my fair share of ribbing in the Army. And boarding school. And in life. But the difference it's always face to face, and it's instantly recognizable as a joke amongst friends. And if it isn't, then it becomes, 'come outside and let's sort it out.'

This guy has had a weird obsessional thing about me for a number of years now. It's not the kind of thing I like. You know how you feel about lycra shorts? That's how I feel about Norris and his fascination with me.

I'm not really concerned about what he says about me--as Gavin says, it's like flies around a bear--but I don't like guys like this being allowed to operate on forums. They lower the tone.

I want the clips for positive reasons, like moving the forum forward with the technology. And I want them to prevent the keyboard warriors from getting hold of a place that is for genuine martial artists. Norris is a perfect example: he's got a whole lot of identities of various genders, including Mandy, that allow him to be somebody he isn't.

Anyway, Nick and everybody else, go and have a look at my bread pudding thread and see if it seems familiar. I'll be happy to take anybody's comments on this one, clip or no clip, with the exception of Paul Norris, Putrid Dogs Breath (who is Tony K) and Graham Wednes (gojuray) who I think have already had their say.

You and me knockign heads over him is how Norris gets his kicks.

Nick that Breadpudding thing was pure offensive shite. You're obviously a stand up fella with lots to say, it would be a loss to this section if you weren't going to post. You have have to say though the whole clip thing does mean that you can't hide behind your keyboard (again not you) and hopefully stop tossers from posting. Again I think it would be very unfortunate for you not to post. Cheers Rob