ZEN DO KAI YOUTUBE

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=fxvgWPi3J2s

Didn't know if you had seen these clips.

Bits and pieces from some of them when I lived at the house. That's like going back in time. They should have broken them up into demo stuff and serious in dojo trainng stuff though.

Nick

Nick, have you seen this: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=z0gcAjy1E2o&feature=related

Jokes aside. Isn't it that book you wrote?

Cheers
Julian

Co-wrote Julian, yes.

Here's the inside story...I was living with Bob in Melbourne and had time to kill between classes so I started writing a book on self defense in general. Aslan Avdi, one of Bob's black belts and a mate of mine had a girlfriend who worked in a Rape Crisis center counseling rape victims. He (and she) suggested the book would sell better if it focused on ladies self defense.

I wrote the text in about 3 weeks even doing some of it in a club back in Qld while home visiting. When it was all done, I gave it to Bob figuring with his name on the cover it would stand a much better chance of getting published due to his reputation.

Bay Books in Sydney picked it up. I assumed both Aslan and I would feature fairly heavily in it due to the fact I wrote it and Aslan edited my paltry effort. Basically I wanted a passport sized pic on the back cover with some acknowledgment of what we did.

I'd moved back to Qld meantime (my contract as head instructor for the style was only a year long) and the next thing I knew a copy arrived in the mail with a check for $300 for my efforts. Word for word - with the exception of some editors minor changes - the text was mine. Aslan and I weren't invited to be in any of the photos shot for the book and all I got for recognition was a mention inside the front cover that I had written the first draft/copy.

That was the beginning of my falling out with Bob and the style and I broke away and founded "Fighting Fit" soon thereafter. (Fighting Fit's name is accredited to Tony Young, one of my black belts and was an Aerobics and Karate school) I think Bob since knicked the name "Fighting Fit" - at least that's what I heard on the grapevine.

Nick

I liked the sparring from 1970 in the Part 1 video, those guys looked like they meant business. I poked my head in at a ZDK club in Brisbane about 5 years ago and it looked nothing like what I remembered from the early 80's. The 'sparring' looked like a waste of time. One part of that Youtube video showed some breaking which reminds me of a story I heard about you Nick that has the ring of truth. I think it was a demo at the old Sundale shopping centre on the Gold Coast. What I heard was that the bloke who was supposed to get the tiles made a mistake and instead of getting clay roofing tiles got tiles made of solid cement that were painted teracotta. You discovered this with the first blow and apparently some of the flesh on your striking hand got peeled back but you decided to keep punching unitl they were broken anyway. Some nurse supposedly freaked out. Did that happen? If so I bet you've still got the scars.

He'll bear the scars of this thread much longer.

Saxon,

Like most stories a little bit of truth and a little bit of fabrication. I was punching through a stack of tiles yes, about eight if I remember, and as I went through them I sliced the back of my hand open on a shard.

I didn't worry about it and pressed on with the demo - the show must go on right?

It was the woman who organized the demo at the shopping center who freaked when she saw it - nurses aren't going to be bothered by a cut hand - and one of my guys drove me to the hospital for some stitches.

Yes, it doesn't surprise me about the newer version of ZDK...(I asked as much on another thread) When I stayed with Bob in Melbourne we talked about the original days of Zen Do Kai. The world wide boom had just kicked off and they had, literally, 500 people trying to join the club every week. They used a lot of people for cannon fodder and practice for their fights on the door in a bid to get them to quit and make room for newbies.

The old Elizabeth St dojo, in which I imagine those early clips were filmed, was actually 3 stories high. Blue belts trained on the bottom, green belts on the 2nd floor and only brown belts and black belts on the 3rd. I think I've mentioned before, Bob busted out some super eight reels one night and I watched just over 300 people run out of the dojo and into the Botanical Gardens for a Saturday morning class. Can you imagine? 300 bloody students.

Later, when the craze began to wane, there were about the same amount joining as quitting, and then logically, later still, more quit than joined. At that point Bob travelled to the US to find out how they were dealing with it. (that's when he met Mike Stone and several other VIP karateka of the times) He came back and dropped some of the forms and lightened up a lot on the sparring.

I believe the 2nd dan grading is now done with gloves and pads due to an incident in which a kid in Melbourne came very close to dying during it. The family was going to sue and when Bob's lawyer found out what the 2nd dan grading involved he nearly had a cow and later the pads were introduced.

Nick

PS: Brian, bearing scars for this thread???

Take the joining fees, knock them around and make room for new ones......thats pretty much how Jones explained it in an interview.

Knew several Zen Do Kai guys in Sydney in the early 80's, most were great fellas, but had no time for those who lived in Jones' shadow/reputation as it was back in the early seventies (i.e, working the door at clubs and bragging about belting people around......morons).

By no means saying Jones bragged about giving people a flogging, just those macho men I met later who got their rocks off with the "heavy" talk.

Bob,

I don't think it was an insidious as that and you can blame me for writing it in a hurry. He was a bouncer with a security company called "The Troubleshooters." They trained like maniacs (I talked to two of Bob's room mates [businessmen, not karate guys at all] who roomed with him during those early days. He'd run five miles every morning, do 500 pushups, 500 situps, 500 squats and 500 punches into the brick wall of the house. They were eating breakfast the day the plaster inside came down from the punching ) and he trained the same way during class.

I think as a result of that hard training people quit which made room for new ones which worked out well. From my conversations with him it wasn't so much "we decided to bash the shit out of everyone so we could make more money' but more a question of "the training was so hard, and we bashed so many people during it, that lots quit which made room for all the new ones joining."

Agree with you about the ones riding his name. We'd get a bunch of poseurs who'd join so they could get a cross and be one of the Jones boys. Fortunately most of them couldn't hang with the training. We also had our share of frauds i.e. guys with crosses that they'd fabricated themselves. Sadly for them, every now and then, they'd bump into one of us

Nick

Nick Hughes wrote:PS: Brian, bearing scars for this thread???

Well, maybe the scars from the clip? Tell me that is not a typical representation of how good ZDK was. Please!

And the comedy clip? That hit home.....

Well, I think I explained all that up in the General thread on MMA...no it's not a typical representation. That would be like looking at film of the Royal Air Force's Red Arrow team and thinking "ah, so that's how the air force fights."

People never took cameras to class but they sure wheeled them out at demos...so, when you go to put clips together all you have is material from stuff designed to impress mug punters and tv producers you're not going to end up with any sort of true representation.

Nick

Scarred............. Scarred........... the horror...........

Nick Hughes wrote:
(Fighting Fit's name is accredited to Tony Young, one of my black belts and was an Aerobics and Karate school) Nick

Wasn't it Tony that was running your club in Townsville (probably last time I saw you in the flesh, no?)?

Are you still in contact? I hope he is doing well

BK

Nick Hughes wrote:
The old Elizabeth St dojo, in which I imagine those early clips were filmed, was actually 3 stories high. Blue belts trained on the bottom, green belts on the 2nd floor and only brown belts and black belts on the 3rd. I think I've mentioned before, Bob busted out some super eight reels one night and I watched just over 300 people run out of the dojo and into the Botanical Gardens for a Saturday morning class. Can you imagine? 300 bloody students.

I have been lucky enough to train all over he world, including Japan, and I have never been to a dojo with quite as much spirit/soul/whatever/ as 48 Elizabeth St.

And the numbers?! I was at one of those outdoor sessions at the gardens near the MCG in late 72 or early 73 (maybe 72, coz Billy and Malcolm were still brown belts...) with at least 300 people. They sure were some times...

BK

Mate,

Yep, Tony took it over after I left Townsville. Last I heard, and that was 20 years ago, he moved to Sydney to go to Uni. I'd be willing to bet Tony is still at Uni somewhere...he struck me as one of those perpetual students.

Nick

PS: I can't remember if the last time was Tony's and Annie Key's nidan test (and I think you and big Jock were there) or the tournament they put on for the Qld games when I got Nicky O'Callaghan back for the broken nose he gave me the night I joined Zen Do Kai officially. I wonder what he's doing....ah the memories.

Nick Hughes wrote:Mate,
PS: I can't remember if the last time was Tony's and Annie Key's nidan test (and I think you and big Jock were there) or the tournament they put on for the Qld games when I got Nicky O'Callaghan back for the broken nose he gave me the night I joined Zen Do Kai officially. I wonder what he's doing....ah the memories.

Yep, we were certainly at Tony's nidan grading (a typical 'old school nidan test, from memory...!). BTW, big Jock spent four years in Japan teaching English and studied Katori Shinto Ryu swordsmanship; he is now the Oz rep. A katana looks like a toothpick (the bugger is still about 135kg!). He was up in Jakarta recently; it was good to catch up.

Yes; I remember your bout with Nicky; a classic. You beat me in the final, you big bastid! No getting round that reach, dagnabbit! ;-)

Memories indeed...

But enough of the reminiscing; I'm keen to see what you are doing now, so I will trawl these pages and get back to you on what we are doing with training here...

Cheers,

BK

Sounds good mate. I do remember Jock being into the sword. If he ever gets Stateside I've got a mate he needs to meet. He goes to Japan every year to train with some old bugger who can trace his lineage back to the 15th century.

Tony and Annie's test was slightly different. I lengthened the rounds and made them 26 instead of thirty to replicate the miles of the marathon. I wanted it to be harder than ZDK's cause that was after the split and I was trying to set it up differently.

Look forward to it the reminiscing. Shoot me a number via PM and I'll try and skype you sometime soon.

N

Different that it might have been; my memories were of Tony getting fairly hammered, so it sticks as 'old school'. Sometimes the reality changes over time (another old mate, Bruce Hyland, had his kids from the Australian Karate team over in Jakarta back in 2002; his motto for he and I was: 'The older we get, the better we were...!').

Shit it was '84; it WAS 'old school', regardless of whether it was ZDK or not!

Short of me going through every post in here, what are you doing now in that regard? Are you only teaching self-protection-type stuff or do you still whack on a gi every now and again? If so, what sort of things are on the syllabus...?

PS, have PM'd you as requested. My non-work email is bryson@gojuryu.net

Ah yes, in the sense Tony got hammered it was definitely old school

Mate, t'is rare I put on a gi nowadays. I had a pretty bad motorcycle accident about eight years ago and messed my back up more or less permanently. Makes kicking - once my forte - almost impossible hence my gravitating back towards the unarmed combat which doesn't require them.

I do still get wheeled out by some traditionalists once in a while and must admit it's still my favorite thing of all time to do. I used to have a gig at karate college with Wallace and Lewis and a lot of seminars and connections sprung out of that.

What about you?

N

Bikes mate... my boy has a Valentino Rossi R60; I cringe every time he gets on it... One thing about him being in Iraq at the moment is that he won't kill himself on his bike...(!!!)

I also still love getting on the gi and thwacking the bejeezus out of my bemused local colleagues in the karate community (!)

I am technical advisor to the Indonesian Gojuryu Association (known locally by the unfortunate abbreviation 'Goju Ass'; I shit you not...!), so I get to have a little play every weekend with their black-belts-only class. I am currently trying to show them how to apply their techniques. Not trying to get applications from kata etc.,; I always thought that was all arse-about-face... Just trying to get them to rail off with their punches and kicks, apply some contact, get them against resisting opponents, etc...

That being said, I'd like to send a shout out to the naysayers amongst the 'reality' community that think that the trad arts have nothing to offer. Nothing is new under the sun, as I keep finding out the deeper I delve. It isn't the message that is wrong, but the way the message is delivered that is the issue. The mechanics of a properly thrown karate punch are all too similar to boxing when you break it all down, it's just that the message has been distorted through years of tag fighting etc. You think Morio Higaonna can't punch a hole in you? Puleeeeeeez... (ps, I mean 'you the naysayers'; not 'you, Nick'...!)

Again, nothing is new; I have seen some 'rbsd' guys talking about the pre-fight setup, the 'fence', etc., as if they had just invented the stuff... These were things Bob was doing with us back in the 70's (preaching to the converted here, I know); just different terminology. Pre-emptive strikes thrown from the folded-arms (folded, not crossed) position, etc. Richard is still teaching the stuff in his seminars (he sent me his latest dvd; have you seen it? The flow-drills vid? Has a great clip of Bob and Richard in a pilot for a Miami Vice style tv series back in the late 70's... An absolute pisser!)

Speaking of terminology... I hate that the bjj guys have hijacked 'guard' to mean that lying-down thing, so I can't yell 'get your guard up' any more, or the students get all confused...! ;-) But, I digress...

As far as the 'self-protection' side of things goes, I teach police and security pers here in Jakarta; nothing that you'd find 'special' I don't think. I have just bought a new handycam and am going to post some clips on youtube soon; that'll give you a better idea. Might do some stuff with the Goju guys this weekend...

As far as the 'combat sport' aspect goes, I am coaching a local MMA champ and referee in the local kickboxing shows; just back from the 'Battle on Bali', a mixed MMA/Muay Thai event. Some good fights; I'll try to find the youtube links (search for Fransino Tirta; he's the local lad. Nothing to look at, but he hasn't lost yet...). Also coaching at the Jakarta Muay Thai Training Camp to keep my own fitness up more than anything else; we have a great Indonesian coach who does most of the hands-on with the lads...

Sounds very busy, but I am probably only active one or two nights a week and on the weekends; my job is insanely busy (spent my New Year in Aceh on a client crisis; syariah law makes New Year parties a dull rage indeed...!)

Maybe off to Singapore in a new role; if that occurs, I will probably go the commercial training centre route; people can pay in SIngers, but most can't in Jakarta...!

Look forward to the exchange in here; from what I have seen so far, it is a pretty healthy forum...

Talk soon,

BK

Not trying to get applications from kata etc.,; I always thought that was all arse-about-face...

Don't start us off!

Brian S wrote:

Not trying to get applications from kata etc.,; I always thought that was all arse-about-face...

Don't start us off!

hehe; I could write book bout this nonsense...

Bryson,
I see you mentioned you have a son in Iraq, mine just recently returned from Bassra. Hope he's doing well and keeping his head down.

Bob Wright wrote:Bryson,
I see you mentioned you have a son in Iraq, mine just recently returned from Bassra. Hope he's doing well and keeping his head down.

hi bob,

thanks for that mate. he's not long bee there; maybe they took over from your lad's push. he's a medic; i'm hoping he is keeping his head down as well! i did 22 yrs in the army myself, so i understand his motivation, but i am just his crusty old civvie dad now, and would rather he was back in brissie!

cheers,
bk

Sorry to necro this old thread, but I was wondering if Nick could alleviate my ignorance of the style. Was this a two-track system, made up of doormen who trained to fight on one hand, and a bunch of gullible young men with bad hair doing typical martial arts nonsense on the other?

The forms, no-touch sparring, daft costumes and LARPing with swords looks absolutely awful. It was only a few demonstrations in a normal gi in part three, along with footage of ring fights, that looked of any merit.

What am I missing here? Out of 25 years of footage this is the best they had?