Startle Flinch Craze

Ok so a few want to own it but obviously TB is the man of the minute, but my question is, if you do not see the hit coming then what good is it ? I mean I see the car coming so I get out of the way, if I don't I get hit.....who knew ? or If I see the punch coming I get my helmet guard up etc etc, is it much a do about nothing, is it the new white teeth California person thing to do or am I missing a point ?

Well,that went right over everyone's head it seems Gov

But i'm curious enough to want to know what you're on about...so would you care to expand on that

Ade wrote:Well,that went right over everyone's head it seems Gov

But i'm curious enough to want to know what you're on about...so would you care to expand on that

Just griping at another rippoff, some seem to get away with it more than others was my point.......

Still have no idea what you're on about specifically,but i totally agree with the point you make.

Ade wrote:Still have no idea what you're on about specifically,but i totally agree with the point you make.

Sorry Ade, I am blithering a bit, must be old age creeping in

The point I was trying to make was the marketing of the flinch reaction, made famous these days by Tony Blauer, with others trying to cash in, stating they spotted this first and somehow adding it to their syllabus etc etc, imo no one spotted it, its bs, I clinch my buttocks whilst trying not to pass wind on a lift, this is slightly more useful imo..............but sometimes nature just creeps up on us and out pops the wind, much the same as being sand bagged in the gents at a club or whatever, as in you don't see the strike coming......you only flinch when you see it coming, who knew ?

Slight of hand and trickery springs to mind when I see anyone trying to pass this off as the new move for SP......

Ignore the above, it appears I'm about 4 years to late for that discussion

Ha, no you aren't gov.

You are right that it is all marketing but this needs aired every so often so people new to the scene learn whats what.

I think Steve Morris was the first to talk about this,probably around thirty five years ago,long before RBSD was invented.These two paragraphs are part of a post he made on this forum.

From Morris

THe ways by which you hit without being hit are many. But one of the most important things, for me anyway, is to hit in anticipation of being hit. In fact, the hit itself, if you do it right, produces its own protetcion, not only tactically but from a physiological point of view. When the whole body is engaged in the strike, the musculature, the set of the mind, everything is part of the destructive act. One of the reasons people get knocked out is not only because they don't see the shot, it's because they're not psychologically and physically anticipating the shot.

That's why I emphasize the startle reflex. It can act as a way into understanding this phenomenon when you're fighting. How the body can reactively respond to a cue (audio, visual or tactile) to not only produce this sudden explosive release of force, offensively, but also defensively by the action of the arms and the tensing up of the body.

http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/archives_sp_impressed.html


Sadly the disease which wrecked both Chinese internal arts and Traditional Chinese Medicine has found its way into modern martial arts.Someone finds something which is relatively simple and can be used by most people and along comes a snake oil salesman and turns that simple method into something contrived and hardly fit for purpose.Of course this guy creates a lot of instructors and they in turn scratch their heads and wonder what its all about. It then becomes so complicated that hardly anyone can understand it and is eventually dismissed as crap and the next fad begins.

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Ho hum eh...

I once witnessed the birth and death of a karate style doing just that. I very practical martal arts ruined by a bunch of people who wanted to be enlightened and clever and had alas never been in a fight.

Isn't this a version of the pre-emptive strike?

combatnige wrote:Isn't this a version of the pre-emptive strike?

As Morris says in the article,it can be used offensively and defensively.I think putting the startle reflex in the pre-emptive box might lead to the problems I mentioned above,ie,a misunderstanding and degrading of the method.

combatnige wrote:Isn't this a version of the pre-emptive strike?

Personally i wouldn't call a flinch pre-emptive,it's re-active whereas a pre-emptive is more on the pro-active side

Ade wrote:

combatnige wrote:Isn't this a version of the pre-emptive strike?

Personally i wouldn't call a flinch pre-emptive,it's re-active whereas a pre-emptive is more on the pro-active side

Yes this ^^

I can't see its worth no matter who sells it, having said that though and much to my surprise, I have seen my two young boys, ages 3 and 4 using a punch at first reaction, a bit like cats fighting, the 3 year old went to push his brother, he retracted his body and swung his fist at the same time, thankfully he missed but sometimes they don't.......................could it be something we are born with only to be lost as the instincts are taken out of us ?

We did discuss this at much length back on both Geoff Thompson's forum and this one...

My problem with it is that a flinch, startle or reflex actions are all, by definition, involuntary or unlearned responses to a stimulus. The second we learn to perform a certain way to stimulus it can no longer be called a reflexive action at all.

They - those who'd drank the cool aid - would wheel out the infamous photo of the baseball bat flying into the crowd as proof positive that we all flinch. Wow - like we need proof!!!! Unfortunately they went on to say that training couldn't override the flinch (not sure why they thought a picture of a bunch of untrained people sitting in a crowd was proof of what a trained person would do...more gibberish arguments sadly)

I have been surprised a bunch of times and every single time, whether it's a car backfiring, a shot fired, loud noises or incoming punches my default response has been to spin towards set noise/threat/surprise while dropping into my stance and my hands coming up to protect in a perfect damned kamae.

Another example I mention is the day my brother and I snuck into a mate's house and we ambushed him with cushions and a screaming kia he came up from deep slumber, sitting up in bed, hands in perfect position exactly how training had taught him. There was no involuntary anything between our screaming and him being in that stance.

Nick

Nick Hughes wrote:
Another example I mention is the day my brother and I snuck into a mate's house and we ambushed him with cushions and a screaming kia he came up from deep slumber, sitting up in bed, hands in perfect position exactly how training had taught him. There was no involuntary anything between our screaming and him being in that stance.

Nick

Sounds like something out of the Pink Panther films

Nick