sparring

Hey everyone , I thought you guys might enjoy this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTGZvwZ9Gr4&feature=player_embedded

Brilliantly done

Hello,

I like that video, summed up things nicely in a fun way.

Is that Lee Morrison @ about 03:45min of video???

Cheers.

Kierran.

Excellent clip!

Good work.

Good video... I'll be sharing this one.

I like it!

thats a great video. definitely sharing

thanks guys it was fun putting it together

It's a good video, not sure I agree with a lot of it but it's a good vid!

Chris wrote:It's a good video, not sure I agree with a lot of it but it's a good vid!

Go on, Chris, I like your critiques. Let's see what you have to say about it.

I know there's a few things I'm not too sure about, but I think you could put it more - ahem - eloquently than I would.

Sparring in a class should never be considered as realistic fighting. Sparring in class serves as a resistance training aiding in some relfex, footwork, body/apendage awareness, etc.

Better to spar than never

Better flee than fight

Better to remain alert and ready

More in importantly;

Better to not allow yourself to get into a situation in the first place.

Like it, used to tell students sparring has its benefits, but really only makes you better at sparring from a RBSD perspective.

The only thing sparring is good for, is to get better at sparring, there is no such thing as RBSD sparring, sparring is safe compared to reality, as a simulator is to flying, which in reality is a thousand miles away.

Oldwolf wrote:Like it, used to tell students sparring has its benefits, but really only makes you better at sparring from a RBSD perspective.

Missed that post lol, I agree

Guys,

There are a lot of sport fighters out there (boxers, wrestlers, MMA'ers) who would kick people's arses in the street and sparring is a central part of their training.

It gets them used to fighting a moving, resisting opponent and taking punishment coming the other way. That cannot be of no value or people who fight for a living (in a cage, ring etc.) and who do so risking serious injury wouldn't bother with it.

Is it the same as a street fight? No and yes. Going toe to toe with Chuck Lidell would probably be a lot scarier and more dangerous than having a punch up with a drunk idiot behind the pub.

Now it may not include all of the potential variables - multiples, weapons etc. - though it potentially can. And - no - the risk of serious injury or even death is generally not present. But it can get pretty close if you're willing and a lot closer than a lot of other forms of training.

Jason.

jasonr wrote:Guys,

There are a lot of sport fighters out there (boxers, wrestlers, MMA'ers) who would kick people's arses in the street and sparring is a central part of their training.

It gets them used to fighting a moving, resisting opponent and taking punishment coming the other way. That cannot be of no value or people who fight for a living (in a cage, ring etc.) and who do so risking serious injury wouldn't bother with it.

Is it the same as a street fight? No and yes. Going toe to toe with Chuck Lidell would probably be a lot scarier and more dangerous than having a punch up with a drunk idiot behind the pub.

Now it may not include all of the potential variables - multiples, weapons etc. - though it potentially can. And - no - the risk of serious injury or even death is generally not present. But it can get pretty close if you're willing and a lot closer than a lot of other forms of training.

Jason.

Your last paragraph voids your argument, in relation to real world violence, OK sparring has benefits but is your mate who you sparr with going to jump on your head, bite your ear off or eye gouge you, probably not so we have to make a clear line in the sand when it comes to sparring, I used to sparr with my mate with no gloves or head gear back in the day as we couldn't afford them, we though this was pretty hard core and it was, is, but there was still a line he or I would not cross.

Hey Govinda.

It's a long-running and interesting debate.

My view on sparring is that it helps you develop critical skills and attributes - speed, power, accuracy, movement, balance, aggression, tenacity etc.

Now, it's true that not all sparring is created equal but the right kind of sparring (boxing, muay thai, mma etc.) helps develop these critical attributes immensely.

It's also true that sparring does not involve eye-gouging, head stomping etc. Having said that, I wouldn't back some drunk 'street fighter's' ability to pull off those techniques against Jon Jones whose training is certainly sparring centric.

His speed, power, movement, aggression etc. would enable him to overrun someone well before he ended up on the ground being stomped. He may never train against multiple assailants or eye-gouges or knives but I reckon he'd still be well equipped to smash through all of those challenges because of his athleticism and his sparring centric training.

Jon Jones is an exceptional fighter and clearly you will not become him just by following his training regime. But following his methods will make you the best fighting version of yourself.

Someonetimes the best way to develop an ability is not to necessarily work on it directly. Just because you train to fight against multiple opponents doesn't mean that's the best way to prepare for it. I think the best way to prepare for it is to become a devastating fighter and see those attributes and skills translate across.

Take knifefighting. I reckon the best knife fighters would not be those who train in Filipino MAs or those that study military knife methods. I'd put my money on a greco roman wrestler. His ability to close you down, control and dominate you would make him deadly if he had a knife in his hand. That's a roundabout way to developing an ability.

In my view, I'd spend 75% of my time training in a combat sport with a strong sparring focus and dedicate the rest to street-oriented material - seminars, books, DVDs etc. I think that is the best way to train for the street.

I personally train in judo. I'm no expert nor a streetfighting genius. And I recognise the shortcomings of judo for the street too.

Having said that, the hundreds of rounds of randori have made me fitter, stronger and harder to take down. I've learnt to fight on when I'm exhausted. I've been (accidentally) kicked in the balls, poked in the eye, headbutted, smacked in the mouth and had fat people fall on top of me, and kept fighting.

I'm a far harder version of me than I used to be as a result of that training and it is completely sport oriented. I have learnt what it takes to struggle to overcome another human being trying to dominate me. That's what randori or sparring develops in my view.

Add a basic understanding of street survival from watching YouTube clips and attending the odd RBSD seminar and working a few basic strikes and I reckon sparring has done me a world of good.

Cheers.

I have used the following statement dozens of times over the past decades, and I still hold it to be true.

"You develop how you train"

sparring, etc etc are all mainly physical aspects, what is the hardest to develop is the mental acceptance that you are facing someone who wants you injured or dead

as long as you know both the limitations and strengths of sparring, then it can be a fine tool..

a wrestler may well be able to 'put you down' etc, but unless he has TRAINED his skills against knife wielding partners, then it is too much to say he will be able to do so without qualification

Jasonr,

There's Youtube clip of Jon Jones having a go at being a cop and having to arrest someone and restrain them when they resist.

It didn't go well as he had his sidearm taken off him and used against him while wrestling with the offender.....and he is in the UFC elite.

Bear in mind that he hasn't received the type of physical training, mindset and experiences that the instructors would have taught real recruits so there is a limit to how badly he did because he did not know any better. Absolutely no way should you wrestle with someone when you are carrying a firearm and I think he learnt that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKj0ZqhaBIQ

It's an interesting watch

Good posts by both Jasonr and Dave (as usual!! )

Yup I agree, good posts, deffo interesting.............

I have heard this argument from people a lot. Sparring is not ‘real’.

No training is, by its very definition, training is not reality and cannot be it.

Do RBSD people hit pads? Is this real, is it the same as hitting a person, do you get the same feelings etc when you do this as when you hit someone?

How do you induce the same adrenal dump and feeling that you would get in a real situation when you know it is not real? Surely this is exactly the same argument as being used about sparring?

I also think that most people are looking at sparring in a competition based format rather than having multiples, weapons etc. None of it will ever be reality but no training ever will.

Cool clip, Mr Nobody.

It certainly shows the importance of appropriate tactics.

I would also bet most police academies would love an intake of 200 Jon Jones to get up to speed and onto the streets!

No worries Jasonr.

It really demonstrates how tactics play a vital role in confrontations especially for Police Officers where their use of force is determined by the scenario playing out in front of them and it shows that it doesn't matter what you're training is or who you are....you can still stuff up.

The problem with sparring is that there is "sparring" and there is "sparring."

When you look at the "Take Your Dough" crowd with plastic helmets, protective gear, eight feet between them and hopping round on one leg throwing flippy kicks that lack power, in an environment designed to make their stuff work (no sweeps or takedowns in Take Your Dough) then yes, I agree wholeheartedly that sparring is a huge waste of time.

However, that's not how I teach sparring and it wasn't how I sparred coming through the ranks in Zen Do Kai.

I'll give you some examples of the level of intensity first before showing you some of the ways we tackled the problem...

During my brown belt test I received a hairline crack in my sternum, a broken nose (again) and pissed blood for about five days.

During my 2nd dan I sent a fellow testee (Gary Watts) to hospital to receive thirty stitches in his forehead.

During Gordon Mitchell's nidan test he blocked a kick between two fingers and split his hand in half to about mid palm. (he wrapped his belt round it and kept going till the test was over).

As to how we sparred...here's just some of the ways I use to train my students....

1. One side can defend only other side can only attack

2. One side can only kick, the other can only punch

3. One side can only do takedowns, the other can punch and kick

4. One side uses right hand, left leg, other side uses the reverse

5. One side starts on the ground and must stay there, the other side stands

6. One person spars 2, 3, 4, all the way to ten opponents

7. Sometimes when I spar the round will only be two seconds long....other times it may go for fifteen minutes. The first time they do a short round both sides realize neither scored. I point out that after you get the signal to start you have about 2 seconds in the street so you better do that in the club. The next time they both come out of the gate all out.

8. I tell them not to just throw techniques for the sake of throwing them. Too many other schools have their students just out there throwing shite without any forethought or planning. Be like the sniper...don't throw a technique unless you're a) 100% certain it will score and b) there is an opening. I ask them to keep score of that ratio...i.e. how many techniques did you throw, how many hits did you get...it should be "I threw ten, I hit ten" if they're doing it properly. I use the analogy of the sniper here i..e one shot, one kill.

To spar the other way is akin to throwing a handful of rocks hoping one hits...

9. I tell them to know how many shots they scored and b) how many were scored on them. Again, they're goal is to score perfectly and never get hit. It can be done. Once you know that ratio you track it so you know if you're improving or not.

10. Every round of sparring is just a series of mini fights strung together. I personally always score first - no matter who I'm up against - so essentially, had it been real and full contact allowed, I just "knocked you the fuck out." (as an instructor I may let the white belt score a whole bunch after that initial start to build his confidence up). Once I've done my combination attack and scored normally the other person will now attempt their "attack" I work on blocking every strike in it and then counter immediately. This deals with the pre-emptive angle in the street i.e. attacking first and being on the receiving end by dealing with an onslaught from the other side.

11. There are so many other variations on the above it's not funny and I use all of them. I'll include padding them up and letting them go all out. Aside from the obvious benefits of above there is cardio training, timing, reflexes and a safe environment to try out new techniques.

With regard to the latter are the people who denigrate sparring seriously going to suggest you just practice throwing a front kick right cross combo either in the air or at a bag and then figuring you'll be able to pull it off in the street in a real go? Wow...good luck with that.

My student can learn that, throw it against a moving target who's attempting to block it and continue doing so until he's confident he can pull it off at will. When he goes "outside" there's no problem then making it work.

I've trained hundreds if not thousands of people this way over the years and when they've gone from white belt wimp to black belt hardass on the door they've never failed to win. I cannot imagine them pulling that off without hours of sparring.

Nick