Dan Grades, Belts and Certification

Hey Dave

I’ve got a question for you and I’m sorting of playing devils advocate here, but anyway.

Why do you think that we, and by we I mean the martial arts community put so much emphasis on grades & certification?

Forget about all the rules and regulations placed on us by society, governing bodies etc, really who is to say that they are necessary. At the end of the day a teachers skill and knowledge is what matters at the end of the day, not a piece of paper.

I mean who certified the first Masters?

Or let’s look at a different way, if I trained one of my children but never actually graded them whose to say that they should not be able to teach what they have learnt.

Lets take another example, Bruce Lee (is that a groan I hear Mr Turton), as far as I know he never completed his training in Wing Chun and was never authorised by Yip Man to teach it. Yet when he went over to the States he felt he could teach it, trained in various other arts, added to what he had, rejected what he did not like and the rest they say is history! Yet nobody (apart from you) questioned his skills and he became a household name

Now, I understand why in todays society they have a place as hopefully it weeds out the cowboys and as was seen in the 70’s etc with the kung fu boom but eventually their lack of skill and knowledge should become evident anyway.

Is it really necessary to have all the various Dan grades (That is not meant in any disrespectful way) but again, way back when before the various belts were introduced into the martial arts what did they use. From my understanding of it, wasn’t it students were issued with a teaching license when the “Master” felt they were ready.

I suppose what I am really asking is, Do we really need all the baggage (belts, certificates etc etc) that comes with teaching?

Hope that gets the old brain cells going.
Stu

Thats a bloody corker mate, and one subject I have lots of thoughts about.

I even once wrote an article in Karate & Oriental Arts (or Combat cant remember) about 25 years ago on the same subject.

Lets face it .. if you remove the western world, (Europe, Canada and the USA, and the Antipides), then the ONLY nations actually using the belt tradition are the Japanese, Okinawans and Koreans..

China, the Indian Continent, the Indonesian Archipelego, the Russia's etc.. NONE of their trad arts have coloured or even just black, belts.

Its a system 'imported' along with the arts..

the old late 19th century ju-jutsu masters were all black belts (Like Uyenishi) so they simply brought it with them.. and we in the West fell for it 'hook. line & sinker'.

Then when both Karate & Aikido did the same we just went along with it.

To me there is absolutely NO reason 'as such' for belts if you consider that boxing, wrestling, and 'minor' combat systems like sticks, purring etc had no grades or certificates whatsoever.

John & Gordon Warfields most precious 'item' from Kenshiro Abbe is NOT their grading certs, but a small letter acknowledging them as being the two people allowed to teach Abbe's own defence art here in the UK.

That is similar to the 'menkyo' licencing you spoke of...

John never wore Gi or belt when I trained under him, but by Hell you knew who was top dog and boss man.

and given that unscrupulous people will either sell or buy grades, what value on them anyway..

I guess the answer is we need some form of 'recognition', and some form of accepted 'proof' of our abilities or knowledge...

certainly much too much emphasis IS placed on belts and grades.... but some form of documentary proof is part and parcel of our society..

I did try ridding my system of belts in about 1980, but it proved very unpopular.. students still wanted their belts even though they professed to undertsanding why I wanted to 'scrap' them..

I would like to see the trend of less belts amongst 'freestyle' or RBSD groups and styles.. I think thats a good step forward.

looking forward to other's points of views here mate

One of teh attractions of early MMA in thic country was the total absence of formal gradings and their de facto replacement with an informa but trasnparent hierachy based on who were the most competent people in a gym. sadly, I have heard of at least one instructor who has introduced formal gradings because he makes part of his income teaching and needs something which is marketable to a wider audience

I've always understood the coloured belt system of grading to be have stemmed, in no small part, from the US Occupying Forces stationed in Okinawa and Japan following WW2.

Badges and awards have always been a big deal with the US Military, and many GI's who sought off-duty instruction in the various indigenous martial disciplines whilst in theatre expected recognition in some easily identifiable format - which a system of coloured belts met perfectly.

Mick

Very Interesting subject,
When I first started martial arts in 1986 I trained at three arts Shotokan, WTF Taekwondo and Thai kickboxing.
My dad had to pay for all the lessons and was asking why I took part in thai/kickboing with Phil Glover as there were no belts so it was a waste of time??
Needless to say I learnt more about martial arts with Phil than the other clubs at the time.
I think as a society people need the re-assurance of the certificates/grades
eg Gas Fitters - CORGI, Degrees from university etc.
The grade situation can get out of hand I know a club that ran in my village that was run by an 11th dan... my friend trained there.
Its hard for the public to know the computer certificates (Cornflake box issue) and the real people who have worked hard for there grades.

Interesting thread & a subject that I have been giving thought to.

A little while back I was teaching MA & had been for a while so the certificates were esential in order to access MA insurance & being able to teach in certain areas such as schools, first aid certificates are also necessary.

Now that I no longer teach & just train for the enjoyment its very liberating being free of organisations, insurance policies, certificates, belts/gi's etc etc.

With regard to 'legitimate' certificates this can also be a problem (I think) for many reasons. One is the fact that an individual can initiate contact with someone in Japan and/or Okinawa and make the right moves in order to become a regional instructor for the particular association and it might not have anything to do with the representatives ability.

Could it be that Gi's, belts & certificates etc are also about style/organisation identity?

Has anyone here gone from Gi's to shorts and t-shirts? Do you wear a Gi & obi Dave?

Cheers, Ken

Mick,

Kano had belt systems way before WWII mate. This is from a Judo history (and I've seen pics in a book from that era)...

In the days before Kano created Judo, there was no kyu/dan ranking system in the martial arts. A more traditional method of recognizing achievement was the presentation of certificates or scrolls, often with the secrets of the school inscribed. Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded shodan to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between yudansha (black belt ranks) and mudansha (those who hadn't yet attained black belt ranking). Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black obi (belts) in 1886. These obi weren't the belts karateka and judoka wear today -- Kano hadn't invented the judogi (Judo uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They were the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern judogi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black belt ranks.

Professor Kano was an educator and used a hierarchy in setting learning objectives for Judo students, just as students typically pass from one grade to another in the public school system. The Judo rank system represents a progression of learning with a syllabus and a corresponding grade indicating an individual's level of proficiency. Earning a black belt is like graduating from high school or college. It indicates you have achieved a basic level of proficiency, learned the fundamental skills and can perform them in a functional manner, and you are now ready to pursue Judo on a more serious and advanced level as a professional or a person seeking an advanced degree would.

Around 1930 Jigoro Kano created a new belt to recognize the special achievements of high ranking black belts. Jigoro Kano chose to recognize sixth, seventh, and eighth degree black belts with a special obi made of alternating red and white panels (kohaku obi). The white color was chosen for purity, and red for the intense desire to train and the sacrifices made. The colors red and white are an enduring symbol of Japan, and they have been used in Judo since Jigoro Kano started the first Red and White Tournament in 1884. The kohaku obi is often worn for special occasions, but it is not required to be worn at any time and the black belt remains the standard for all the yudansha ranks. Jigoro Kano also created the optional red belt to recognize 9th and 10th degree yudansha.

Theoretically the Judo rank system is not limited to 10 degrees of black belt. The original english language copy (1955) of Illustrated Kodokan Judo, by Jigoro Kano, says: "There is no limit...on the grade one can receive. Therefore if one does reach a stage above 10th dan... there is no reason why he should not be promoted to 11th dan." However, since there has never been any promotion to a rank above 10th dan, the Kodokan Judo promotion system effectively has only 10 dans. There have only been 15 10th dans awarded by the Kodokan in the history of Judo.

Other colored belts for students who had not yet achieved black belt originated later, when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. He felt that western students would show greater progress if they had a visible system of many colored belts recognizing achievement and providing regular incentives. This system included white, yellow, orange, green, blue, and purple belts before the traditional brown and black belts.

The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts, such as aikido and karate, which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes.


I've highlighted some of the relevant sections...

PS: I think the ranking system is awesome, providing it's understood that it only has significance in one's own school or system. Without going to it in detail it's interesting to note that there are ranking systems in almost everything.

The Army has a grading system, the Air Force, The Navy, The Royals, The Government, Universities, Sporting Associations, The Police Force, Schools, even real estate which I do has agents, brokers, brokers in charge and a million and one various designations earned by attending continuing education seminars etc.

The military use badges, stripes and stars, the royals use various costumes, various colors and titles, the govt does the same, and so on. Why just pick on martial arts?

Nick

Nice one Nick,

I sit, with my feet up, corrected!



Mick

Hi Nick

The only reason i'm using martial arts as an example is that most of us on here have a martial arts back ground. I have nothing against ranking systems and am proud of all the grades that i hold and i use kyu grades / belts to grade my students. As many RBSD and MMA instructors are against belts /ranks i just wondered what others thoughts on the topic were.

Stuart

I have given out white belts to my 1st dan black belts.It is to remind them that we are all eternal students and can learn from everyone....