The practical place of kata in martial arts

Hi Nick

Just a quick question. I know you advocate kate up to a point but would you clarify that point.

Also please give an opinion on how it should be practiced.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. When I did karate it was by no means unheard of to train in kata for an entire 2 hour lesson very slowly and in timing with the rest of your group. There were approx 15 katas or so hat you learned all the way up to 5th dan, not that were ever did the top ones.

As I say we practied in timing with each other and all that. Made it very slow with very low posture and did it in 80% of our training time an was told to work on this aspect or that (stance, punch ect)

Compare this to the capoeira lessons where the sequence is done one at the end of every lesson, isa two man drill and is often done as quickly as possible often with the difference segments to make you think. It is not dissimilar to all the other two man drills we do all night.

Then again we have the Tae Kown do class where all patterns were done solo and never in groups unless it was for a competiion, they took up decided less class time than the karate.



So in a martial art how much kata is healthy? How many katas are enough and how many to are too much. What do you believe they should consist of? How should they be performed and to what end?


I'm not sayting that every art should have kata but if they wer to be included how would you thik they should be done

AXE
Jagunco

You caught the correct mate...I'm a huge advocate of them...especially for fighting multiple opponents...BUT they do have to practiced the right way.

In Zen Do Kai we would devote equal amounts of time to Kumite, Kata and Kihon (sparring, forms and basics) which make up the big three of any trad karate system. The self defence techniques are pulled from the forms which is when they'd get worked on.

When I originally started we had about 24 forms to black belt level...later on we dropped that to about eight as some of them are variations on others eg. we had gegisai dai ichi, dai ni, dai san, di yon, and dai go. All the same pattern with variations thrown in to the mix.

The way we practiced was to visualize (same technique used by the Russians and NASA and Olympic athletes) being surrounded by a group and actually fighting them as you did the various moves. There are seventeen hidden applications of a backfist move including neck locks, arm locks, strikes, throws etc...which one you did depended on your personal interpretation of the technique at that time...i.e. in some classes I'd visualize a life and death fight and kill everyone I hit, other times I'd be throwing them and so on.

It's been mentioned before but the sub-conscious mind cannot differentiate between what is real, and what is imagined. (which is why you can wake up in a cold sweat from a nightmare or jump when you hear a noise coming home from watching a horror film) so, when you visualize during the form, you are, as far as the subconscious is concerned, actually fighting.

So, if you do what most people do when practicing a form, i.e. just the physical moves with an attitude of "damn this is boring, why can't we be sparring" you'll get bugger all from your practice except some mild physical activity. If on the other hand you do the visualization drill mentioned above you're actually fighting packs of people every time you do one.

Yes, the timing was important when practicing as a group. I'm not allowed to look around when doing the form so one has to develop the other senses to pick up on what the group is doing. For example, in class if I'm in the front row and the first move involves turning to the side and blocking I listen for the rest of the group to start moving and then I move. I may hear their feet, I may hear the rustle of their clothes, I may hear their breathing etc. After a while you also develop a feeling (I used to get it between the shoulder blades) when I knew they were about to move and you also use your peripheral vision to a huge degree.

Obviously these are all good attributes to develop when fighting a group of people...you can hear them moving in from behind, you can sense them and you can pick up movement peripherally.

One of the guys that I worked with years ago on the door and I got into a discussion about the "sensing" one night. He had come out from behind the desk to assist in a fight I was in without about six guys on the sidewalk. He had only just started working and was trying to figure out how I'd been able to drop people almost with looking at them, and yet miss him when he walked into the fray. He was worried that I'd mistake him for one of them.

If he doesn't have any intent to harm me then I'm not going to pick up on him being there.

Now, I know that sounds almost like Star Wars and the force but hunters are taught not to look directly at game as they stalk it (very big in bow hunting where you have to get close enough to put your arrow in it) because if you do the game will sense you and take flight. You're supposed to look slightly to one side and use your peripheral until the very second you take aim to shoot/fire.

We were taught the same stuff in the Legion...when you're doing a stalk on another man don't think about killing him or look directly at him as he'll pick up on it. Most people in the civilian world have had experience at this...you might be standing at a bus stop and you'll get a feeling you're being watched...you look up and sure enough, some guy on the fifth floor of a nearby building is looking straight at you...how did you know?

Alright, I digress...so yes, several katas (each one in Goju focuses on different attributes), trained using visualization, trained in a group with perfect timing so everyone begins and ends at the same time which will develop things such as acute/active listening, picking up on intent, and peripheral vision. They also are a great cardio workout and are very task specific.

We all know you can be cardio fit from running and yet get out of breath riding a bike or swimming. Kata, done at full fighting speed, one after the other, will work your cardio like nothing else and is very task specific.

Noel Hattwell's favourite conditiong drill (which he used on my brother to get him ready for full contact fighting [my brother was the state champ BTW] was to do all the forms up to black belt, repeat them all the way back down, and then repeat them all the way back up. That workout more than any other used to kick my arse and Tony Quinn told me the same thing one day. "Mate, I've been lifting weights every day and boxing for two hours getting ready for this title fight. Mal did katas last night in class and I can hardly fucking walk."

Alright, I hope that helps. I've said it before and I'll say it again...all the guys I know that used to regularly take on groups of people and do well were all big kata advocates i.e. Bob Jones, Noel Hattwell, Mal Anderson, Quinny and so on. All the people I know who think they're crap have trouble fighting multiple opponents and are big fans of going one on one in a ring. Things that make you go hmmm.

Nick

That's a great responce Nick and very rapid. I'm interested in a lot of the things you've mentioned. The awareness was very interesting indeed.

I've not done any karate kata for years, possably cos I haven't done karate in years but as I mentioned it wasn't rare to spend an entire lesson, indeed the entre weeks worth of lessons on kata. We often discussed the applications and the imagination of the kata (imagining what the moves could be used for) and as ou say there were often several uses. It has to be said that we didn't go and do applications of them as much as we could of with hind sight should of.

For myself I've noticed that my spacial awareness is better than most other people in my class. I can tell where I'm standing in a room and usualy how close I am to the next pair training or the wall or the table. It's actually frighteneing to see that a lot of people training so close to each other and often getting clipped on the head by someone in the next group.

Also in the roda I find I'm harder to trap against the edge and am more aware of what's going on in my perifial vision. From what you say this may be because of the kata training from my karate days.

If its ok Nick I'd like to discxuss this furthur but its getting late at this end so I'll save it for another post.

An integral part of the training was also pulling out the bunkai. We'd take a move and work it slowly at first, build up speed, and then have the opponent offer varying degrees of resistance all the way up to almost total.

Absolutely a must

Nick

Hi Jagunco I remember those Katas well and must have done them with you a few times when at a course in your area. One of Sensie ideas was to work the Muscles, hence that’s why we did them slow. I remember using the visualization, and been totally gone at the end of the session.
I can remember people saying and have seen them do Kata in there sleep due to us doing so much of it at summer school.
I enjoyed it, most of the time but Sensei did have an other objective, to see who in the high grades would be first to give up.
I still do them but not so lower a stance these days.

The one bad thing was, people getting shot Knees.
Any comments on that Nick,was it bad form they had or something else.

Dave McC

What karate organization were you part of Dave?

And I remember the shot knees. I still got a pair somewhere, but I think they're the first thing to go on a martial artist

Shotokai
I was based in Edinburgh.
I must admit had some good times.
All went hay wire with politics.

Dave McC

I don't know about the knees mate. Mine aren't great but I know loads of guys my age who've never trained in martial arts and their knees are shot as well. One in particular has only ever played tennis.

I think as a joint they just wear out over time.

Cam Quinn, one of the big honchos in Kyokushinkai told me he had knee trouble for years and one of his instructors had him doing full squats (no weights) which fixed them up in a matter of weeks. Might be something in that.

Nick

Shotokai????

Jesus I never though I'd see someone from shotokai on here. PM me mate so we can catch up I'm sure we've trained together. Me and my brother were famous, the identical twins who though constantly.

So do you still do kata Nick? And tell us more about this awarenoess 6th sense stuff you mentioned in your first post

Yes, every now and then I'll do some but it's hard nowadays. I have two screwed up discs so, whenever I do a halfway decent workout the next 3-4 days will be agony due to them swelling and putting pressure on nerves.

Re the 6th sense...hard to explain. You just pick up on intent and, if you work or live in that environment you become more attuned to it. Talk to any soldier who's been in a war zone for any length of time and they'll know of guys in their squad who "sleep with one eye open" and can pick up attacks before they happen.

Wild animals are pretty adept at it as well but we lose the ability due to living in a civilized society where other do our fighting for us. When you leave that protection and go to war, you tap back into it fairly fast.

It's funny, I got back on the door and a few months ago I said to one of the doormen and his girlfriend (she was taking the money) "there's going to be a fight in about seven minutes." They looked at me like I was bonkers but about six and half minutes later two guys came spilling out the door punching each other and we had to break it up. I called another one last night...told one of my mates "something will happen in the next five minutes and it did...right on the sidewalk in front of us.

There's nothing really magical about it..as I mentioned you're just accessing something we - including animals - all have already.

Nick

Maybe I can add something. Read about the right side of the brain. There you want to work and not with the left side. The right side can analyse a whole lot of the incoming information (also called intuition). I think Nick get it through realistic training. Before the situation occurs you have been there before through your training as example your kata. It's all comes down to visualization. It's rather like a pilot who does "chair flying" and playes in his mind the situation which could happen. And when it really happended the mind stored this and can access it.

Like Nick said it's like a animal. You got that thing already its inherited... but through school, civilaziation etc. it's "forgotten", but with the right training it will come back.

Just a thought

Julian

I've head of it before and don't discredit it at all. Alas a lot of the problem with discrediting stuff like this comes from people who can't do it saying they can or people who can do it making on they're something special because of it.

My old karate instructor used to talk about such things all the time, and it was possible he could do some of them. Unfortunatley his complete lack of modesty coupled with some of the wildest stories you've ever heard made it very hard to belive.

He also delighted in showing us pictures of Harada Sensei dping his stuff the no mear mortal could. Again its quite possible Harada could do some of this stuff but he made such a meal of it and made it out to be something only the godlike could achive.

I'm pretty sure it was attitudes like this that have shot a lot of traditional organizations in the foot.

Nick,

you said elsewhere had one of the best bunkai applications you ever saw. Do you still remember some of it? I think he was very good at Sanchin, but modified it so it was more a representation of the original Fujian Sanchen.

Cheers
Julian

I remember most of what I've been shown over the years but I wouldn't attempt to get into a break down of the stuff here. At some point I'll make a dvd on break down on some of the more popular kata.

Nick

Nick Hughes wrote:
Cam Quinn, one of the big honchos in Kyokushinkai told me he had knee trouble for years and one of his instructors had him doing full squats (no weights) which fixed them up in a matter of weeks. Might be something in that.

Nick

G'day Nick. The knees haven't had trouble for years. Neither, I might add quite significantly, have any of my students.

I even started running marathons a few years back and still no problem. The only time it kind of 'clicks' is when some dill drags me out to a nightclub for a dance and I try and pull one of my narly 70's disco moves.

I firmly believe the knee problems are about bad, or even just not quite right, alignment when doing things. Even warming up the knees with the feet at the wrong angle stresses them. Especially true in kata and also when holding pads. In my dojo we make sure everyone gets a thorough lesson on how to HOLD the pads and shields before they are allowed to kick them.

I think if the knees are getting damaged, you are doing something wrong. It might not be major, just the weight distribution as you step is usually enough to start an accumulative effect. I have been conscious of protecting my knees since retiring from competition 20 years ago and any knee problems have gone.

Largely decreasing heavy squats and increasing bodyweight-only squats and also making sure alignment is perfect when stretching.

As far as kata go for fighting, in 1980 I lived in a very isolated place called Thursday Island. At that point no one to train with to prepare for the Nationals, so I ran hills, sprints and did kata. Kind of like Nick mentioned with Noel, I would do all the kata up to my level with push-ups, sit-ups and squats (not many, usually 20 of each) between each one. Trying to maintain correct form. Then I would do them again with my mind on application, free them up a little and go through them again without the restraint of the pure form but more like a free flowing street fight. Would even let the techniques change a bit so that where there was a strike in the kata, I would do any strike; where there was a block/strike combo, any appropriate block and strike. The result was I got a second in the Nationals (got ripped off I reckon) and when I review the video my footwork and balance was just uncanny. Except for one time where I threw a spin back kick I had practiced at the beach the day before, did to cartwheels and feel off the stage. But that wasn't the fault of the kata, that is just what happens when you try something you only practiced the day before... :-)

Cam Quinn

Mate, what were you doing on Thursday Island? I was over on Palm for a few days once...lovely place...NOT!!!

Nick