Old School

Hi Dave,

Hope you are well.

I was recently flicking through some books I have on old school fighters and I noticed something that hadn't really registered with me before. The number of fights these guys had.

Henry Armstrong - 181 fights
Sugar Ray Robinson - 202
Harry Greb - 299
Tommy Loughran - 175
Willie Pep - 242
Ted Lewis - 279

Even taking into account the fighting style of guys like Pep and Loughran which protected them to a certain extent that's still a huge amount of fighting by todays standards where winning a dozen fights can put you in the frame for a world title challenge.

How did they manage to survive?? If anyone had a career that long these days there'd be murders yet these guys came through a ridiculous amount of physical punishment relatively unscathed? I'm genuinely curious whether these guys were a different breed. I know you've met some of the old school boxers so was wondering what your impression was when you compare the mentality and fighting styles and careers of the old and the new?

cheers

Hope it's not too rude of me to jump in, but I saw this and I know what you mean, compare Joe Calzaghe's "sensational" 41 wins to the records of some of these guys and you wonder how much times have changed. Interestingly, in Thailand, where they go pro at about 8 years old, 200 professional bouts by the age of 25 are not uncommon.

My 2 trainers when I went there had had 120 and 204 pro fights respectively and were both under 28!!

And those don't count the exhibition matches they do every night of the week in the bars in Patong.

That's a good point Ed, I was being a little blinkered in my western approach to the question.

The Thais seem to be having the same type of careers now that western boxers of 100 or even 50 years ago had. Thriving and surviving on the lifestyle.

Having seen it close up, what do you think makes that possible?

Hey Ed: Is it true that most of the pro Thai boxers are crippled with arthritis by the time they´re in their 30s? Someone told me that once, but I´ve no idea if it´s true.
RGC

I don't think it's about making it possible, I think it's a cultural and survival thing. There has been a huge explosion in tourism in Thailand, making a country of weird contradictions and extremes; there is still a lot of severe poverty especially in the north.

If you're from a poor family, being a fighter is one of the only options open to you as a boy, hence why so many of them do it.

A 15 year old thai fighter, "wat" lived at the camp I stayed at, he had to fight at least evey 2 weeks to send money home to his family. We went to watch him fight and he lost, he was desperately upset because the payout was less, and on the way home in the jeep we were passing all these bars with 50 year old western men buying endless cocktails for young thai girls paying money that would have fed him and his brothers and sisters for weeks.

This kid was an excellent fighter, like, unbelievable for 15, but he was still just a boy and got pasted by a 21 year old champion, I couldn't believe he was literally fighting for his living at 15.

A lot of them do wear out physically very young, they usually peak at 21/22/23 and retire from the top levels at 25!!! They continue to fight, often aborad, in places like Dubai, and all the trainers at my camp fought in exhibition matches in bars every night, and believe me, thye took hard knocks and they hit hard, for cash.

The price they pay is high - a lot have recurring injuries and are punch drunk, although "chalk chai" who was a national champion and a trainer at the camp I went to, was 38 and still in good shape, with a neck like a small tree!!!

He and this other guy, "nui" had a 25kg weight on a rope, they put it in their teeth and did 50 reps of neck extensions with it, looking up and down 50 times with this rope hanging out of their mouths!!!

Didn't hear about arthritis, but I wouldn't be surprised, however, I imagine the climate is kinder to joints than here; despite all the training, I went out there with a lower back injury but because I wasn't doing any weights and I had a full body massage every other day for 5 weeks, I was in the best shape of my life!!!

Blimey, tough life...

Peter Buckley has had 274 fights including Prince Naseem (twice) , Duke McKenzie, Dean Pithie, Scott Harrison, Micahel Brodei, Michael Gomez, Kevin Lear,

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=3372

I take your point about it being necessity Ed. If there's no other viable option then you just get on with it I suppose.

like socrates says.. tough life though.

Yeah there is something amazing about devoting your life to surviving in the ring, there is none of the pomp and theate that goes with things like the UFC or even boxing, just you and the other guy, banging the shit out of each others shins every night, every injury and illness a huge barrier to overcome, in the gym everyday, till you achieve that calm in front of anyone, just a real natural.

I have fought much bigger and "harder" people than those I sparred with over there, but never anyone as composed and totally relaxed in the ring, like watching a test batsman, those guys have so much time to counter, like a sort of matrix style slow motion scene, they can take whatever you throw at them and stay cool, amazing people, and the nicest, most humble outside the ring, absolutely no posturing or bravado, just f*ckin sharp!!

Jack Dempsey had over 100 fights BEFORE anyone really heard of him..

he once said about his training and fighting back then " I was so tired I envied the work horses"

Its also true that 'purses' werent large for the lesser fighters so they fought more.

On a slight tangent, many of the old pro wrestlers I knew had to fight SIX times a week just to get something like a decent wage and by decent I mean about £500 a week in todays cash.

An old friend of mine "Harold Wrigley " (who fought as Rasputin the Mad Monk) got £10 a fight in the 1960's .. about £100 in todays money.. he paid his own travel, 'digs' if needed, and his promoter..

In boxing terms .. Ted Kid Lewis (known as the Crashing Bashing Dashing Kid for his 'whirlwind style') had over 300 fights, but most of his early ones were for £200 (in the 30's).. but he 'only' fought once a month

They just did it Chris.. everyone else was doing it so they did it..

todays fighters get more money and 'pay' for it in other ways, whether they are really better fighters is an argument that could go on until the NEXT millenium.

Reading "Give him to the angels" the Harry Greb story he said that he did'nt have to train as he was fighting that much he felt he was constantly training.


Alan

Alan mate .. you have just mentioned my favourite non heavyweight fighter.. GREB!